Author Topic: The Religious Relics: What Are They?  (Read 42240 times)

Offline canpinter

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2015, 04:17:47 AM »
BAT

Big
APOLCALYPTIC
Trilogy

I draw attention to the second word (all caps)..
Wikipedia

All things being equal would it be that out of order for an enactment of an Apocalypse include a major religious figure/deity from the core religion of the milieu (in this case Christianity...)?

There have been many speculations that the BAT/DV story will end with a change of guard at the Outer Gates; Winter being replaced by someone else as Watchers On The Wall, so to speak. The Judeo/Christian Armageddon (or something DV-ish akin to it) might well be what it entails.

/shrug
Don't know but wouldn't be surprise by this point.


so ya.....i always thought it stood for Bad-ass trilogy

Offline forumghost

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2015, 08:36:15 AM »
I thought it was the 'Bat' Trilogy, and Harry was going to spend three books stuck in Gotham City. Harry would have to struggle between his Geek Fanboyism of being in a Comic Universe, and his Geek Fanrage of knowing that it was DC and not Marvel
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:40:10 AM by forumghost »

Offline Ulfgeir

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2015, 04:33:48 PM »
I thought it was the 'Bat' Trilogy, and Harry was going to spend three books stuck in Gotham City. Harry would have to struggle between his Geek Fanboyism of being in a Comic Universe, and his Geek Fanrage of knowing that it was DC and not Marvel

And he would NOT be Batman... Wonder if he would end up being one of the villains instead.

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Offline Quantus

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2015, 06:37:40 PM »
Essentially yes, the Nails gained prominence and meaning thanks to the event of the crucifixion. The Swords, which as we know have been reforged and taken on 'mantles' of their own thru time, could very well have been 'holy swords' in their own right. Joyuse comes to mind as a tie to Excalibur, and that Sword was wielded by none other than Charlemagne though that came after...we know of course about Kusangi predating the Death.

However, they only become 'Swords of the Cross' because of these events. And thus whatever they were before, they became something else. In a very Kringle esque manner. Or better example, the fake Shroud. It has power because ppl think its the real deal, the genuine article. But its absolutely nothing compared to the one in the Vault. So too would any other versions of the Swords prior to receiving the Nails. Certainly they keep that prominence and history, people still view those famous blades a certain way. But now they are something new altogether.

Like the item-mantles are the 'anchor' to reality that allows a blade with its own power to obtain more or adapt to the Nails when re-forged. Idk where that idea would lead but it came to me as I typed it and I figured i'd add it for posterity sake.

So I think there is room for a little of both, but big piece certainly was the power given to the Nails that allow the Swords to be. And that comes as a result of the events occurring and the importance placed upon those events later by humanity as well.
Ok, I really like that, it fits everything I can think of, based on our stated assumpions. 

So lets take a step back and examine the other possibility: What if the items were Prepared ahead of time (empowered for Ritual purposes)?  Setting aside the question of Who and Why, What would the items have been made to do?  Based on the classic story I tend to think that, whomever was behind it, Jesus was aware of it if not an active participant of The Plan, but Im not attached to that. 


Each possibility has an unknown factor involved, and Im not sure which is more likely.  If they were empowered byt he events themselves, the question is Why those 5/6 items alone got empowered (to that degree at least), while there are other equally famous relics associated with it:  the Scourge he was whipped with, the whipping post, The Seamless Coat, the Veil of Veronica in particular (which aurguably fits the theme better than the Shroud).  And let's not forget my personal favorite Holy Relic, the Holy Prepuce. But it could all be there in the background/shadows the the DV specific history and we simply havent been made aware of it.  But that is the exact same problem with the idea of them being prepared ahead of time: we have to ask Who and Why and How and all of that.  It could easily be made to make sense in the DV, but we just dont know yet (or really have anything much to go on).     

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Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2015, 07:55:52 PM »
Ok, I really like that, it fits everything I can think of, based on our stated assumpions. 

So lets take a step back and examine the other possibility: What if the items were Prepared ahead of time (empowered for Ritual purposes)?  Setting aside the question of Who and Why, What would the items have been made to do?  Based on the classic story I tend to think that, whomever was behind it, Jesus was aware of it if not an active participant of The Plan, but Im not attached to that. 


Each possibility has an unknown factor involved, and Im not sure which is more likely.  If they were empowered byt he events themselves, the question is Why those 5/6 items alone got empowered (to that degree at least), while there are other equally famous relics associated with it:  the Scourge he was whipped with, the whipping post, The Seamless Coat, the Veil of Veronica in particular (which aurguably fits the theme better than the Shroud).  And let's not forget my personal favorite Holy Relic, the Holy Prepuce. But it could all be there in the background/shadows the the DV specific history and we simply havent been made aware of it.  But that is the exact same problem with the idea of them being prepared ahead of time: we have to ask Who and Why and How and all of that.  It could easily be made to make sense in the DV, but we just dont know yet (or really have anything much to go on).   

Well the easiest answer is one of two. Either the Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection were all a ritual in and of themselves to specifically empower these items, OR the same events of which all these items were involved in is the reason they garnered this power.

I tend to favor something more towards the latter because the event itself is arguably the single most relevant and important set of aspects surrounding Jesus' life. I mean this was supposed to be the whole reason he was born, to die for humanities sins. That kind of attachment has made these items revered worldwide for centuries. All the other items you mention, while some have direct involvement even, I would argue are nowhere near the same top tier level of 'importance' as has been placed on the five bit items plus the nails. And I think since we've already got the in book example of the fake Shroud lending us credence to faith empowering even a useless rag...that it still fits the in book rationale as to why these items specifically mean so much more than the holy foreskin or the Scourge for instance.

Because if I walked up to a random person on the street and asked them what the Seamless Robe was i'd get the glazed over look...but mention the Holy Grail and at a minimum you get a Monty Python quote, but you get my point. So I think its very easy to differentiate which ones really matter even if we're sticking to a strictly 'belief' empowerment theme granted by the importance of the event itself. For myself personally I think the five items chosen in this story are realistically far more well known than that second level you illustrated, even over the few that were directly involved in Passion but weren't in the Vault.

Concurrently when you bring in an idea as you had with the Egyptian example which fit so well to the items, Nails too accepting my rationale, the others (maybe Veil excluded) seem like a stretch at best to fit the themes. And since I liked that theme I think it lends credence to the importance of these items over the others based on 'fame' for lack of a better term as being valid.

As for the idea the items were prepped beforehand, if it turns out to be the case then that's cool too but unlike the Swords which are 'easy' to attribute other version from in history...I have yet to see a real comprehensive list of examples of prior representation for these items as we know them now.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2015, 03:08:27 PM »
Well the easiest answer is one of two. Either the Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection were all a ritual in and of themselves to specifically empower these items, OR the same events of which all these items were involved in is the reason they garnered this power.

I tend to favor something more towards the latter because the event itself is arguably the single most relevant and important set of aspects surrounding Jesus' life. I mean this was supposed to be the whole reason he was born, to die for humanities sins. That kind of attachment has made these items revered worldwide for centuries. All the other items you mention, while some have direct involvement even, I would argue are nowhere near the same top tier level of 'importance' as has been placed on the five bit items plus the nails. And I think since we've already got the in book example of the fake Shroud lending us credence to faith empowering even a useless rag...that it still fits the in book rationale as to why these items specifically mean so much more than the holy foreskin or the Scourge for instance.

Because if I walked up to a random person on the street and asked them what the Seamless Robe was i'd get the glazed over look...but mention the Holy Grail and at a minimum you get a Monty Python quote, but you get my point. So I think its very easy to differentiate which ones really matter even if we're sticking to a strictly 'belief' empowerment theme granted by the importance of the event itself. For myself personally I think the five items chosen in this story are realistically far more well known than that second level you illustrated, even over the few that were directly involved in Passion but weren't in the Vault.


Concurrently when you bring in an idea as you had with the Egyptian example which fit so well to the items, Nails too accepting my rationale, the others (maybe Veil excluded) seem like a stretch at best to fit the themes. And since I liked that theme I think it lends credence to the importance of these items over the others based on 'fame' for lack of a better term as being valid.

Hmm, I see your point.  I think I hesitate on it though mostly because the Fame and popularity of several of those items appears traceable to the recent rash of tests and scientific examination, which was understandably limited to the relics that they thought they had in museums (the spear and the shroud notably).  The placard Id argue is not any more famous than any of the other excluded bits (though the TrueName idea explains its presence to my mind, regardless of any Egyptian connection).  Plus I generally took the comparison of the fake shroud to the real one, power-wise, as an indication that Cumulative Faith can only empower items so far, and that these were significant for more factual reasons.  An obvious alternative to that is that both get shares of the Cumulative Faith, but the real one simply gets more, I suppose

Quote
As for the idea the items were prepped beforehand, if it turns out to be the case then that's cool too but unlike the Swords which are 'easy' to attribute other version from in history...I have yet to see a real comprehensive list of examples of prior representation for these items as we know them now.
What Im thinking for that is that they would have been enchanted in more ordinary fashion before hand, to give them specific functions for a Binding and Sacrifice Ritual.  If that's the case I think it more likely that the items werent nearly as powerful initially, but still magical and functional.  So for example the Crown could have restrained Magic like the Manacles, but would not necessarily have the crazy-strength aura that all the items do now.  Similarly I'd think it more likely that the Nails were enchanted with some sort of Binding capabilities but that it wasnt until they were reforged as swords that they gained their item mantles (Kusanagi, etc), rather than those Sword-spirits(?) being somehow whistled up and crammed into Nails (which are not swords).  If it were the latter Id want the Nails to have been unusually Sword-like (hilt-less daggers perhaps).
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Offline Lawgiver

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2015, 06:05:45 PM »
Getting pretty deep and esoteric here. I was wondering if we could simplify things a little by going more basic.

In occult symbology a single item can stand for more than one thing depending on the need of the action/ritual to which is will be put. As I recall the "air/earth/fire/water" (four points the pentacle/pentagram) have various symbols attached to them by various religious/belief systems. JB seems focused more on the Judeo/Christian (and attached) systems such as Wicca as opposed to Theosophical schools such as Zoroastrianism.

Sword/Athame (blade of some kind) = Fire
Spear/Wand = Air
Shield/Pentacle = Earth
Cauldron/Grail = Water

The Grail and Spear seem obvious. If the Nails are taken as Athames (hiltless daggers) then the Name Placquard could represent the shield. The Crown of Thorns and Shroud then, if we're going for ritualistic significance/use equivalencies, would then represent Spirit and Will. I would personally go with the Crown being Will and the Shroud as Spirit.

Maybe I'm swimming out of my depth but to me simple is better.
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Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2015, 09:22:27 PM »
Hmm, I see your point.  I think I hesitate on it though mostly because the Fame and popularity of several of those items appears traceable to the recent rash of tests and scientific examination, which was understandably limited to the relics that they thought they had in museums (the spear and the shroud notably).  The placard Id argue is not any more famous than any of the other excluded bits (though the TrueName idea explains its presence to my mind, regardless of any Egyptian connection).  Plus I generally took the comparison of the fake shroud to the real one, power-wise, as an indication that Cumulative Faith can only empower items so far, and that these were significant for more factual reasons.  An obvious alternative to that is that both get shares of the Cumulative Faith, but the real one simply gets more, I suppose

Yeah that's primarily how I viewed the Shroud, the fake one got the attention so it built up an otherwise meaningless sheepskin to tangible power levels, but the overall Faith in the idea itself went largely to the real deal. So the fake Shroud got the equivalent of 'worship' like Zeus or Odin might once have benefited from but the real one got the important or healthier chunk of the 'faith' aspect.


Quote
What Im thinking for that is that they would have been enchanted in more ordinary fashion before hand, to give them specific functions for a Binding and Sacrifice Ritual.  If that's the case I think it more likely that the items werent nearly as powerful initially, but still magical and functional.  So for example the Crown could have restrained Magic like the Manacles, but would not necessarily have the crazy-strength aura that all the items do now.  Similarly I'd think it more likely that the Nails were enchanted with some sort of Binding capabilities but that it wasnt until they were reforged as swords that they gained their item mantles (Kusanagi, etc), rather than those Sword-spirits(?) being somehow whistled up and crammed into Nails (which are not swords).  If it were the latter Id want the Nails to have been unusually Sword-like (hilt-less daggers perhaps).

All sound logic if it were used in that way, I just wonder how many of those items we could trace back to having 'item-mantles' like the Swords did...cuz as much as I don't like the idea of them having importance prior to this and their main power came FROM the Passion itself, it would make sense if items of at least cursory relevance were used.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: The Religious Relics: What Are They?
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2015, 01:48:24 PM »
Getting pretty deep and esoteric here. I was wondering if we could simplify things a little by going more basic.

In occult symbology a single item can stand for more than one thing depending on the need of the action/ritual to which is will be put. As I recall the "air/earth/fire/water" (four points the pentacle/pentagram) have various symbols attached to them by various religious/belief systems. JB seems focused more on the Judeo/Christian (and attached) systems such as Wicca as opposed to Theosophical schools such as Zoroastrianism.

Sword/Athame (blade of some kind) = Fire
Spear/Wand = Air
Shield/Pentacle = Earth
Cauldron/Grail = Water

The Grail and Spear seem obvious. If the Nails are taken as Athames (hiltless daggers) then the Name Placquard could represent the shield. The Crown of Thorns and Shroud then, if we're going for ritualistic significance/use equivalencies, would then represent Spirit and Will. I would personally go with the Crown being Will and the Shroud as Spirit.

Maybe I'm swimming out of my depth but to me simple is better.
Given what Bob said in CD about how even really complicated stuff like demonreach was still built on a "basic star-and-circle architecture", it wouldnt surprise me in the least if it were organized that way, though as you say it is most likely only one of several aspect of the symbolism at play. 

I would suggest that if it is indeed based on the Pendacle idea, then Id leave the nails out of it, somehow set them apart, or combone them with the Spear (ie the Five Wounds are a single aspect), especially with the Five Artifacts being so specifically grouped.  The pentacle has always been (at least how Harry has always presented it) as the 4 Helenic elements plus Will/Spirit/Heart.  The closest thing I can think of that separated them out further was in Potions, and that started with the 5 senses rather
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