The Religious Relics: What Are They?

[Slowpool]

Another thing that might be important is the fact that there were five items in the armory.  That's enough to start looking into rituals and summonings the items might help in, not to mention whatever abilities the items may have on their own.

Holy crap, what if they could be used to summon Christ?  Like, full on On The White Horse, Sword From Mouth Christ?  That would be hardcore.

[Eldest Gruff]

Holy crap, what if they could be used to summon Christ?  Like, full on On The White Horse, Sword From Mouth Christ?  That would be hardcore.

Has been suggested as a possibility for sure.

[Lawgiver]

BAT

Big
APOLCALYPTIC
Trilogy

I draw attention to the second word (all caps)..

An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apocálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω meaning "uncovering"), translated literally from Greek, is a disclosure of knowledge, i.e., a lifting of the veil or revelation. In religious contexts it is usually a disclosure of something hidden. In the Book of Revelation (Greek: Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰωάννου, Apocalypsis Ioannou), the last book of the New Testament, the revelation which John receives is that of the ultimate victory of good over evil and the end of the present age, and that is the primary meaning of the term, one that dates to 1175.[1] Today, it is commonly used in reference to any prophetic revelation or so-called End Time scenario, or to the end of the world in general.

Wikipedia

All things being equal would it be that out of order for an enactment of an Apocalypse include a major religious figure/deity from the core religion of the milieu (in this case Christianity...)?

There have been many speculations that the BAT/DV story will end with a change of guard at the Outer Gates; Winter being replaced by someone else as Watchers On The Wall, so to speak. The Judeo/Christian Armageddon (or something DV-ish akin to it) might well be what it entails.

/shrug
Don't know but wouldn't be surprise by this point.

[isoycrazy]

Holy crap, what if they could be used to summon Christ?  Like, full on On The White Horse, Sword From Mouth Christ?  That would be hardcore.

Okay.  This got me thinking of of . . . Captain PLanet.  Five people holding the items and calling them out.
"Spear!"
"Placard!"
"Crown!"
"Shroud!"
"Grail!"

"Go!  Jesus Christ!"

"By your powers combined, I am Jesus Christ!"

 . . .  Yeah, I really may be going to hell for that one.

[Lawgiver]

Okay.  This got me thinking of of . . . Captain PLanet.  Five people holding the items and calling them out.
"Spear!"
"Placard!"
"Crown!"
"Shroud!"
"Grail!"

"Go!  Jesus Christ!"

"By your powers combined, I am Jesus Christ!"

 . . .  Yeah, I really may be going to hell for that one.

You can have the seat in front of me

[Quantus]

I’ve been percolating another thought about these, and in particular their possible Ritual roles and/or implications.


This one comes from the unsettled debate in the stories regarding the Body/Spirit/Soul and what is The Self.  These are mirroring some of the classic arguments surrounding the philosophic questions of Life and The Self.  In my metaphysics classes all individual definitions seemed to fall short, but something I was always fascinated by was the Egyptian Idea of self, which sidestepped the issue by defining no less than 5 parts of the self, in addition to the Body, each with a different purpose.  I see some similarities with these artifacts, and the DV idea of the Self. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul

So the parts are:  the Ren (Name), the Ba (Personality), the Ka (Vital Spark), the Sheut (Shadow), and the Ib (Heart's Blood).  My thought is that each Artifact was intended to Bind a specific part of that complex Self.


The Placard Binds the Name/Ren.  You know, with Magic. 

The Ka is the Vital Spark, "What makes them Alive", and Death is defined as it leaving the body. This fits Magic/Life most in the DV, I think, so Ill say that the Crown of Thorns restrains it like Thorned Manacles for mortal magic. It is sometimes identified with a "Spirit" from other religions, but there were cultural complications there (Egyptians didnt really conceive of a non-corporeal afterlife).   

The Bah is the personality, and by the description I think fits best the DV idea of the Spirit/Ghost. 


The Sheut (Shadow), doesnt have much in the way of specific purpose that I can find, it was more that it was observed, ever-present and obviously connected to the very significant Sun, so it was given high status.  Best I can find is that it is "The mark one leaves on the World".  Not sure here, but the physical imprint on the Shroud has a sort of Shadow feel to it...

The Ib is the Heart, or Heart's Blood.  It is the seat of emotion, will and intention.  It is "a metaphysical heart was believed to be formed from one drop of blood from the child's mother's heart, taken at conception."  It is what is Judged in the afterlife, what bears the marks of your good and evil deeds.  This sounds like what is popularly called a Soul in the DV.  Im gunna say for now that the Spear binds the Soul, by literally piercing the physical Heart and stealing that Drop. 


Further, the Ka and Bah were supposed to leave the Body and reunite "On the Other Side" and become an Akh, whose definition varied widely over the dynasties, but mirrors the Spirit+Soul metamorphosis that Bob alluded to (but said he didn’t really understand) in GS. 




So in this, each artifact was intended to Bind a particular aspect of the Self:

Placard = Name
Crown   = Life Magic
Cup      = Personality/Spirit (?)
Shroud   = Shadow (?)
Spear    = Soul (?)

Separately there are also the Nails that restrain the Body in a more literal way, so:
Nails     = ha/Body

(Edited to correct old typo's that still bothered me)

[Eldest Gruff]

Ive been percolating another thought about these, and in particualr their possible Ritual roles and/or implications.


This one comes from the unsettled debate int he stories regarding the Body/Spirit/Soul and what is The Self.  These are mirroring some of the classic arguments surrounding the philosophic questions of Life and The Self.  In my metaphysics classes all individual definitions seemed to fall short, but something was always fascinated by was the Egyptian Idea of self, which sidestepped the issue by defining no less that 5 parts of the self, in addition to the Body, each with a different purpose.  I see some similarities with these artifacts, and the DV idea of the Self. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul

So the parts are:  the Ren (Name), the Ba (Personality), the Ka (Vital Spark), the Sheut (Shadow), and the Ib (Heart's Blood).  My thouht is that each Artifact was intended to Bind a specific part of that complex Self.


The Placard Binds the Name/Ren.  You know, with Magic. 

The Ka is the Vital Spark, "What makes them Alive", and Death is defined as it leaving the body. This fits Magic/Life most in the DV, I think, so Ill say that the Crown of Thorns restrains it like Thorned Manacles for mortal magic. It is sometimes identified with a "Spirit" from other religions, but there were cultural complications there (egyltians didnt really concieve of a non-corporeal afterlife).   

The Bah is the personality, and by the description I think fits best the DV idea of the Spirit/Ghost. 


The Sheut (Shadow), doesnt have much in the way of specific purpose that I can find, it was more that it was observed, ever-present and obviously connected to the very significant Sun, so it was given high status.  Best I can find is that it is "The mark one leaves on the World".  Not sure here, but the physcial imprint on the Shroud has a sort of Shadow feel to it...

The Ib is the Heart, or Heart's Blood.  It is the seat of emotion, will and intention.  It is "a metaphysical heart was believed to be formed from one drop of blood from the child's mother's heart, taken at conception."  It is what is Judged in the afterlife, what bears the marks of your good and evil deeds.  This sounds like what is popularly called a Soul in the DV.  Im gunna say for now that the Spear binds the Soul, by literally piercing the physical Heart and stealing that Drop. 


Further, the Ka and Bah were supposed to leave the Body and reunite "On the Other Side" and become an Akh, whose definition varied widely over the dynasties, but mirrors the Spirit+Soul metamorphosis that Bob alluded to (but said he didnt really understand) in GS. 




So in this, each artifact was intended to Bind a particular aspect of the Self:

Placard = Name
Crown   = Life Magic
Cup      = Personality/Spirit (?)
Shroud   = Shadow (?)
Spear    = Soul (?)
Nails     = ha/Body

I like this, but if its sticking to the artifacts I would probably have left out the Nails in the end. Even so this would be my take on that model:

Shroud (shadow/Sheut) - possibly the easiest to place as it is representative of a shadow or silhouette which the cloth covers easily as thats sort of a main sticking point to the Shroud. As a burial cloth it fits well with the aspect of death that Sheut also is indicative of.

Placard (name/Ren) - another good parallel. The importance of the concept of a 'name' is well established by Egyptians and the placard represents it twofold. First as it has aspects of the actual name of Christ AND it allows us insight into what he became a symbol of...recall the Placard is meant to illustrate the 'crime' of Jesus which was used to convict him. In this way 'King of the Jews' is given further importance and perhaps enhances or influences the overall nature of his name. As we all know, 'names have power'.

Spear (personality/Ba: -also could loosely include Nails-) - this is where it gets a bit tricky. The Egyptians had little concept, based on the reading, of a purely immaterial existence. Every person had a unique portion of themselves that passed on. The Spear I think ties in best with this. It is a unique attribute to Christ's crucifixion, (though not unheard of in others during the course of history), that he was pierced in the side by the Spear. In so doing we have opened the door to the Ba aspect, something wholly unique to he who was not alone in being crucified on that hill. It also represents our 'body' or physical aspect to bind with the next object. So too does it mimic spirits, bound to the earth upon death as shades and memory.

Grail (vital spark/Ka) - regarding the spirit or essence. The Grail is used to represent the granting of the 'Blood of Christ' thru which salvation might be attained. a spiritual symbol and an important aspect to summoning/binding in the DV is the use of blood. Ka is what gave you life and so too thru the blood are you meant to attain 'life everlasting'. You are meant to sustain your Ka thru food and drink. Parallels souls which per our favorite archangel, everyone is and you can 're-grow' thru acts of living.

Ba and Ka are meant to combine. The greatest symbol of 'God's mercy' on earth, thru the Grail, a very spiritual and metaphysical notion goes well I think with the physical embodiment of the Spear...the actual death blow and unique trait in his death. This all creates the Ahk as a parallel to the spirit/soul aspect of passing on 'properly' to your afterlife in the DV.

Crown (heart/Ib) - arguably the hardest to explain but i'll try. The metaphysical heart to the Egyptians was taken from one drop of blood from the Mother's heart at conception. It is also an aspect of will/thought/emotion...the weighing of the heart in the afterlife determined where you would go. In the DV we know you cannot perform magic you do not believe in. The Crown is meant to represent derision in its way of the assertion that Jesus is the Son of God or 'King of the Jews'. What he intended to be and represent. Some have pointed out the parallel to the thorned manacles. In this way we see the 'binding' of the nature of magic and the restriction placed on it. Magic follows Laws and rules (not in the Council sense so much as the inherent nature sense). Magic has its own inherent set of 'limiters' and suppression like the manacles, based in part on the will of the user. It lines up nicely I think with the idea of your 'true heart' and your actions being influential in how you use your magic and how you will be judged later (the stains Black Magic leaves on you comes to mind).

My two cents anyway, nice addition to the discussion on your part.

[Quantus]

I like this, but if its sticking to the artifacts I would probably have left out the Nails in the end. Even so this would be my take on that model:

Shroud (shadow/Sheut) - possibly the easiest to place as it is representative of a shadow or silhouette which the cloth covers easily as thats sort of a main sticking point to the Shroud. As a burial cloth it fits well with the aspect of death that Sheut also is indicative of.

Placard (name/Ren) - another good parallel. The importance of the concept of a 'name' is well established by Egyptians and the placard represents it twofold. First as it has aspects of the actual name of Christ AND it allows us insight into what he became a symbol of...recall the Placard is meant to illustrate the 'crime' of Jesus which was used to convict him. In this way 'King of the Jews' is given further importance and perhaps enhances or influences the overall nature of his name. As we all know, 'names have power'.

Spear (personality/Ba: -also could loosely include Nails-) - this is where it gets a bit tricky. The Egyptians had little concept, based on the reading, of a purely immaterial existence. Every person had a unique portion of themselves that passed on. The Spear I think ties in best with this. It is a unique attribute to Christ's crucifixion, (though not unheard of in others during the course of history), that he was pierced in the side by the Spear. In so doing we have opened the door to the Ba aspect, something wholly unique to he who was not alone in being crucified on that hill. It also represents our 'body' or physical aspect to bind with the next object. So too does it mimic spirits, bound to the earth upon death as shades and memory.

Grail (vital spark/Ka) - regarding the spirit or essence. The Grail is used to represent the granting of the 'Blood of Christ' thru which salvation might be attained. a spiritual symbol and an important aspect to summoning/binding in the DV is the use of blood. Ka is what gave you life and so too thru the blood are you meant to attain life everlasting. You are meant to sustain your Ka thru food and drink. Parallels souls which per our favorite archangel, everyone is.

Ba and Ka are meant to combine. The greatest symbol of 'God's mercy' on earth, thru the Grail, a very spiritual and metaphysical notion goes well I think with the physical embodiment of the Spear...the actual death blow and unique trait in his death. This all creates the Ahk as a parallel to the spirit/soul aspect of passing on 'properly' to your afterlife in the DV.

Crown (heart/Ib) - arguably the hardest to explain but i'll try. The metaphysical heart to the Egyptians was taken from one drop of blood from the Mother's heart at conception. It is also an aspect of will/thought/emotion...the weighing of the heart in the afterlife determined where you would go. In the DV we know you cannot perform magic you do not believe in. The Crown is meant to represent derision in its way of the assertion that Jesus is the Son of God or 'King of the Jews'. What he intended to be and represent. Some have pointed out the parallel to the thorned manacles. In this way we see the 'binding' of the nature of magic and the restriction placed on it. Magic follows Laws and rules (not in the Council sense so much as the inherent nature sense). Magic has its own inherent set of 'limiters' and suppression like the manacles, based in part on the will of the user. It lines up nicely I think with the idea of your 'true heart' and your actions being influential in how you use your magic and how you will be judged later (the stains Black Magic leaves on you comes to mind).

My two cents anyway, nice addition to the discussion on your part.

Oooh, I like those too. 

Make sure I have this right:  You are thinking Ba=Spirit/Ghost, Ib=Magic/Life, and Ka=Soul


Good point on the Nails, I went back and set them separately.  I think they still fit in, at least in the sense of the larger concept of Artifacts = Restraints.

[Eldest Gruff]

Oooh, I like those too. 

Make sure I have this right:  You are thinking Ba=Spirit/Ghost, Ib=Magic/Life, and Ka=Soul

Yep. They each all directly cover aspects of 'blood' (coincidentally ) both physical and metaphysical in their own way. Tying together all the important aspects (spirit, soul, 'life-force')

Good point on the Nails, I went back and set them separately.  I think they still fit in, at least in the sense of the larger concept of Artifacts = Restraints.

I certainly don't disagree on their importance, even as it might pertain to the restraint aspect, it was just hard to reconcile without a 'sixth' aspect.

ALTHOUGH. Perhaps the Nails could represent the Akh? They only bound the physical body of Christ after all, what he was and would become still occured. His true essence which rose again, like a combination of 'spirit and soul' unburdened or restrained by the physical. It was meant to be reawakened by the Ka and Ba combining...the Nails are easily the most active of the holy relics out there but could only tie his earthly aspect down.

"An Akh could do either harm or good to persons still living, depending on the circumstances, causing e.g., nightmares, feelings of guilt, sickness, etc.

Sounds alot like the Swords to me no?

[Quantus]

I certainly don't disagree on their importance, even as it might pertain to the restraint aspect, it was just hard to reconcile without a 'sixth' aspect.

ALTHOUGH. Perhaps the Nails could represent the Akh? They only bound the physical body of Christ after all, what he was and would become still occured. His true essence which rose again, like a combination of 'spirit and soul' unburdened or restrained by the physical. It was meant to be reawakened by the Ka and Ba combining...the Nails are easily the most active of the holy relics out there but could only tie his earthly aspect down.

Sounds alot like the Swords to me no?

My thought was that the 6th aspect was the "Ba," literally the Body.  I think Id prefer it that way from an arbitrary symmetry standpoint, simply so that the 6th is qualitatively different than the other 5, since they currently have the appearance of being set aside. 

I dont think the Akh would fit, mostly for a timeline issue.  The Nails were engaged during the crusafixion itself, whereas the Akh is supposed to come into existence after Death; in that regard the only one that fits the Ahk is the Shroud.  Which would make sense as fulfilling the post-death mummification requirements.

[Eldest Gruff]

My thought was that the 6th aspect was the "Ba," literally the Body.  I think Id prefer it that way from an arbitrary symmetry standpoint, simply so that the 6th is qualitatively different than the other 5, since they currently have the appearance of being set aside. 

I dont think the Akh would fit, mostly for a timeline issue.  The Nails were engaged during the crusafixion itself, whereas the Akh is supposed to come into existence after Death; in that regard the only one that fits the Ahk is the Shroud.  Which would make sense as fulfilling the post-death mummification requirements.

Unless we tailor that to the idea that the Nails as a facet to power holy swords DID only come about after death...a death which gave prominence and meaning to all the artifacts for sure, but certainly most prominently in the story thus far to the Nails. Combined with the first passage from the wiki I put above comes this right after:

It could be evoked by prayers or written letters left in the tomb's offering chapel also in order to help living family members, e.g., by intervening in disputes, by making an appeal to other dead persons or deities with any authority to influence things on earth for the better, but also to inflict punishments.

I just think it fits better with the duality of the Swords and their general representation. And that's thanks to the Nails.

[Quantus]

Unless we tailor that to the idea that the Nails as a facet to power holy swords DID only come about after death...a death which gave prominence and meaning to all the artifacts for sure, but certainly most prominently in the story thus far to the Nails. Combined with the first passage from the wiki I put above comes this right after:

I just think it fits better with the duality of the Swords and their general representation. And that's thanks to the Nails.

Ok, that actually pretty Cool.  Lets chase that thought for a second: lets say for a moment that it was the events of the Passion itself that empowered these items, rather than being somehow prepared ahead of time for their roles.  Then the events would have Empowered them, which in the nails/sword case would translate to inbueing them with the (and I stand by this particular use of the term) Item-mantles of the Swords which we know predated those events.  Or would that have not happened until the Nails were later forged into Sowrds the first time?

[Eldest Gruff]

Ok, that actually pretty Cool.  Lets chase that thought for a second: lets say for a moment that it was the events of the Passion itself that empowered these items, rather than being somehow prepared ahead of time for their roles.  Then the events would have Empowered them, which in the nails/sword case would translate to inbueing them with the (and I stand by this particular use of the term) Item-mantles of the Swords which we know predated those events.  Or would that have not happened until the Nails were later forged into Sowrds the first time?

Essentially yes, the Nails gained prominence and meaning thanks to the event of the crucifixion. The Swords, which as we know have been reforged and taken on 'mantles' of their own thru time, could very well have been 'holy swords' in their own right. Joyuse comes to mind as a tie to Excalibur, and that Sword was wielded by none other than Charlemagne though that came after...we know of course about Kusangi predating the Death.

However, they only become 'Swords of the Cross' because of these events. And thus whatever they were before, they became something else. In a very Kringle esque manner. Or better example, the fake Shroud. It has power because ppl think its the real deal, the genuine article. But its absolutely nothing compared to the one in the Vault. So too would any other versions of the Swords prior to receiving the Nails. Certainly they keep that prominence and history, people still view those famous blades a certain way. But now they are something new altogether.

Like the item-mantles are the 'anchor' to reality that allows a blade with its own power to obtain more or adapt to the Nails when re-forged. Idk where that idea would lead but it came to me as I typed it and I figured i'd add it for posterity sake.

So I think there is room for a little of both, but big piece certainly was the power given to the Nails that allow the Swords to be. And that comes as a result of the events occurring and the importance placed upon those events later by humanity as well.

[Lawgiver]

Like the item-mantles are the 'anchor' to reality that allows a blade with its own power to obtain more or adapt to the Nails when re-forged. Idk where that idea would lead but it came to me as I typed it and I figured i'd add it for posterity sake.

At minimum I'd say you just described JB's concept of "the Powers of the DV never change, it's just our perception of them that does." What you've said seems to fit very well with that idea. At least to me. May also demonstrate (in some way) the "more worshipers/believers = more power" angle JB's mentioned.

[kazimmoinuddin]

due to the fact there were only 5 items, and they are  linked, i bet they had a specific purpose.