The Religious Relics: What Are They?

[Bergi]

About abilities for the placard: It could show the true name of anybody carrying it.

[Foxed]

Blood might have still gotten on the object, cleanliness is not a priority in a crucification.

The spearhead, the thorned crown, the cup of his blood, and his bloodied burial shroud. That some blood splattered on the placard is a less solid claim. You have stepped down from "All of these items have been touched by blood" to "Blood might have still gotten on [the placard.]"

No, I think the Name of God TWG being written on the placard is the key to its significance.

[Lawgiver]

Maeve didn't want to be cured, its not like Mab just woke up that morning and said 'screw her, off with her head'. We have not even the slightest idea how the white Christ is going to play out in this series if at all, much less can make a definitive statement about his power levels as compared to say Lea, nor whether or not the Passion was necessary due to N-fection.

Just a side note:

No, Mab didn't just wake up one day and start ordering executions.

We have knowledge that Maeve was over a century behind in doing her job. There's room to speculate (I think it's been done before) that Maeve might have been N-fected for some time before Harry's story opens, and Mab has been maneuvering things for a showdown with Nemesis for decades. For all we know the entire Starborn Project was as least partly her doing. JB's told us it takes a complex series of events to create one. Perhaps Mab engineered just those sorts of events so she could get what she wanted... a Starborn to oust Nemesis. Might explain her interest in Harry from very early on.

Lea, too, may have been N-fected for some time. She, after all, just didn't wake up one day and decide to start making deals with a Starborn's mother, swap holy swords for unholy daggers and generally maneuver to attempt ousting Mab and taking control of Winter (the guardians at the Gates). That, too, took time. Her "cure" was protracted and obviously painful... but effective.

The relics may, indeed, be a 'shortcut' to a cure... or a means of summoning someone/something that can do a quick "laying on of hands" to do the job.

/shrug

[Quantus]

I have a theory.  The premise isn’t mine, but I forget who I first heard mention it. What if the Crucifixion were an elaborate ritual to kill a particularly powerful Immortal (ie the mortal avatar of the White God), or perhaps to dislodge his mantle so it could be transferred? 

Based on the power level of the artifacts these days, it seems reasonable that Big Juju was going down during the Crucifixion.  Based on the relative power of the shroud in DM vs the shroud in SG, its likely much more than just the accumulated faith of today. Based on the historic view that the Old Testament Christian God and the New Testament seem to have different personalities/characterizations, it would fit that that the Crucifixion were the event responsible.

So, assuming for the sake of argument that that's indeed what was happening, what role might each of the artifacts played?  And for the record, I dont know when or how the items got Power, whether the items were empowered ahead of time or empowered by the events themselves.  The revealed original names of the Swords implies that they managed to call existing Power to those particular objects (a sort of Object-mantle, for lack of a better term), so it's possible that these object had similar manifestations in other cultures. 

We have a total of 8/10/40 artifacts associated with that field, and by ones we know the most about is, by far, the Swords.  (For this theory Im assuming the knife is indeed the Spear).  These are all part of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arma_Christi

- Three Swords
   -Fidelacchius/Kusanagi
   -Esperacchius/Durendal
   -Amoracchius /Excaliber

- Grail
- Knife/Spear
- Crown
- Shroud
- Placard

- 30 Coins
- Noose


The Swords = Restraint: These have the stated purpose of restraining all supernatural advantages of the Knight's enemy, forcing them to play by the Mortal rules.  The Nails were used to restrain the body of Christ, locking him to the Cross




Grail = Purification:  The Grail is generally as an artifact of Purity and Healing, and was used ahead of time during the Last Supper. It would follow that the Cup was used as part of a Pre-crusafixion-ritual purification, similar to what Harry does before major rituals.  However, since it received the Blood of Christ ahead of time, it might have played some kind of thaumaturgical role, and "some traditions do say Joseph of Arimathea used to catch his blood at the crucifixion"(Wikipedia).

Crown = Responsibility:  In the abstract this is what declared him to be the King of Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is an important metaphysical attribute.  However, the placard does this similarly, and there were several Mock-royalty items involved (a reed for a scepter, purple Robe, etc).  It would appeal to me if the Crown of Thorns was actually the original prototype of the Thorned Manacles, and so had similar powers. 

Placard = Name:  This (in the abstract) shows and represents the Name of Christ, which would be all kinds of important for most any such ritual.  It also anchors him as the King of Israel/The Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is an important metaphysical attribute.  Its powers will be Name related somehow; either reveal a TrueName, or perhaps forcibly Change it.

Shroud = Preservation:  It's supposed to have healing powers, so I’m guessing that this is responsible for sustaining Jesus's Body while he was off on a Soul-walkabout (to Purgatory by some traditions), essentially like what DR and Mab did for Harry.

Knife/Spear = Death (Change):  This is what did the deed, so to speak.  The logical assumption on primary power is to Kill Anyone, Kill Immortals, Forcibly sever/remove a Mantle from its current Host, or similar.  This could then be why it gained the reputation of ensuring Victory. 




30 Coins = Choice:  The Coins represent the Mortal's Freedom to Choose Evil. The Coins gain the Power to Increase the Freedom of the disgraced Fallen by allowing them to tap that same mortal Right to Choose Evil.  Since the Swords arguably Impede Freedom, and the promotion of Freedom is the stated definition of Good in the DV, such Restraint would be fundamentally counter to the MO of the Heavenly Host, which is why the Coins gain a balancing Power.

The Noose = Retribution:  This is the representation of Judgement, and the inescapable consequences of mortal Choice.  It grants access to a Curse, symbolic of the Jew's Choice to free Barnabas rather than Jesus, and Im thinking a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself).


(Edited to correct typo's that haunt me. -Quantus)

[wyltok]

The Swords = Restraint: These have the stated purpose of restraining and supernatural advantages of the Knight's enemy, forcing them to play by the Mortal rules.  The Nails were used to restrain the body of Christ, locking him to the Cross

You know, for the longest time, I've been wondering what's the symbolism behind the Nails' power. I think this is the best explanation I've ever seen for it. Well done!

That said, if you wish to associate the Crown of Thorns with responsibility, how does that tie in with the Thorn Manacles? Aren't they also symbolic of restraint, since they bind the user's magic?

Also, while you've accounted for the Noose's ability to levy the Barrabas Curse, you forgot about its ability to render the wearer immortal. Any suggestions on how the immortality ties up to retribution/judgement?

[Eldest Gruff]

We have knowledge that Maeve was over a century behind in doing her job. There's room to speculate (I think it's been done before) that Maeve might have been N-fected for some time before Harry's story opens, and Mab has been maneuvering things for a showdown with Nemesis for decades.

That first part would mean she lied at the end of CD as it pertained to how Maeve got N-fected and when. Which as we all know, she cannot do. The only argument one can make is 'well she can be wrong.' Wrong for 150 years is unlikely. That Nemesis only used Maeve NOW when things like the Well were unprotected for 148 of those years is also immensely unlikely unless Nemesis is the worst planner ever.

[Quantus]

You know, for the longest time, I've been wondering what's the symbolism behind the Nails' power. I think this is the best explanation I've ever seen for it. Well done!

Thanks 

That said, if you wish to associate the Crown of Thorns with responsibility, how does that tie in with the Thorn Manacles? Aren't they also symbolic of restraint, since they bind the user's magic?

It doesnt directly/philosophically tie to the Thorned manacles that Ive been able to come up with, beyond the obvious physical descriptions NEW Idea, see below.  The Crown give me the most trouble out of them honestly, because the Royalty abstracts are already covered by the Placard in it's "Kings of Jews" statement.  Unless the Placard is related to his Name, while the Crown was fulfilling a separate requirement of actually being Coronated?  The idea of it being a proto-Thorned Manacle would fit the DV idea that this was some kind of Binding Ritual for a super-powerful being. 

If we assume that this all amounted to a Binding Ritual of some Mantled being, the it would follow that the being had some kind of magical ability, the sort of Abilities that might flare up unconsciously during a period of great physical and emotional strain (Passion, you could even say  ).  In this frame the Crown would represent a Monarch's duty to restrain his own needs and desires and Sacrifice for the Greater Good of his people. 

Also, while you've accounted for the Noose's ability to levy the Barrabas Curse, you forgot about its ability to render the wearer immortal. Any suggestions on how the immortality ties up to retribution/judgement?

Not one that Im really committed to, but thats what I meant by the whole bit about "a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself)."  The idea was that the wearer of the Noose is Destined to die By the Noose, and so is preserved for that (inescapable) eventuality.  You could even take it a step further and say that the Noose itself is imposing a sort of low-level entropy curse on it's bearer, ensureing that someday somebody will come along and make sure the Noose does it's work.  "Sometimes what goes around comes around, Sometimes [Harry is] what Comes Around."

[raidem]

Not one that Im really committed to, but thats what I meant by the whole bit about "a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself)."  The idea was that the wearer of the Noose is Destined to die By the Noose, and so is preserved for that (inescapable) eventuality.  You could even take it a step further and say that the Noose itself is imposing a sort of low-level entropy curse on it's bearer, ensureing that someday somebody will come along and make sure the Noose does it's work.  "Sometimes what goes around comes around, Sometimes [Harry is] what Comes Around."

I like that the Noose is a Curse idea.

[Quantus]

I like that the Noose is a Curse idea.

It appeals to me more and more, if for no other reason than it could be an eventual explanation for why harry hasnt shouted Nic's weakness from the rooftops yet.

[Phariah]

I have a theory.  The premise isnt mine, but I forget who I first heard mention it. What if the Crucifixion were an elaborate ritual to kill a particularly powerful Immortal (ie the mortal avatar of the White God), or perhaps to dislodge his mantle so it could be transferred? 

Based on the power level of the artifacts these days, it seems reasonable that Big Juju was going down during the Crucifixion.  Based on the relative power of the shroud in DM vs the shroud in SG, it's likely much more than just the accumulated faith of today. Based on the historic view that the Old Testament christian God and the New Testiment seem to have different personalities/characterizations, it would fit that that the Crucifixtion were the event responsible.

So, assuming for the sake of argument that that's indeed what was happening, what role might each of the artifacts played?  And for the record, I dont know when or how the items got Power, whether the items were empowered ahead of time or empowered by the events themselves.  The revealed original names of the Swords implies that they managed to call existing Power to those particular objects (a sort of Object-mantle, for lack of a better term), so it's possible that these object had similar manifestations in other cultures. 

We have a total of 8/10/40 artifacts associated with that field, and by ones we know the most about is, by far, the Swords.  (For this theory Im assuming the knife is indeed the Spear).  These are all part of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arma_Christi

- Three Swords
   -Fidelacchius/Kusanagi
   -Esperacchius/Durendal
   -Amoracchius /Excaliber

- Grail
- Knife/Spear
- Crown
- Shroud
- Placard

- 30 Coins
- Noose


The Swords = Restraint: These have the stated purpose of restraining and supernatural advantages of the Knight's enemy, forcing them to play by the Mortal rules.  The Nails were used to restrain the body of Christ, locking him to the Cross




Grail = Purification:  The Grail is generally as an artifact of Purity and Healing, and was used ahead of time during the Last Supper. It would follow that the Cup was used as part of a Pre-crusafixion-ritual purification, similar to what Harry does before major rituals.  However, since it received the Blood of Christ ahead of time, it might have played some kind of thaumaturgical role, and "some traditions do say Joseph of Arimathea used to catch his blood at the crucifixion"(Wikipedia).

Crown = Responsibility:  In the abstract this is what declared him to be the King of Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is a important metaphysical attribute.  However, the placard does this similarly, and there were several Mock-royalty items involved (a reed for a scepter, purple Robe, etc).  It would appeal to me if the Crown of Thorns was actually the original prototype of the Thorned Manacles, and so had similar powers. 

Placard = Name:  This (in the abstract) shows and represents the Name of Christ, which would be all kinds of important for most any such ritual.  It also anchors him as the King of Israel/The Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is a important metaphysical attribute.  It's powers will be Name related somehow; either reveal a TrueName, or perhaps forcibly Change it.

Shroud = Preservation:  It's supposed to have healing powers, so Im guessing that this is responsible for sustaining Jesus's Body while he was off on a Soul-walkabout (to Purgatory by some traditions), essentially like what DR and Mab did for Harry.

Knife/Spear = Death (Change):  This is what did the deed, so to speak.  The logical assumption on primary power is to Kill Anyone, Kill Immortals, Forcibly sever/remove a Mantle from it's current Host, or similar.  This could then be why it gained the reputation of ensuring Victory. 




30 Coins = Choice:  The Coins represent the Mortal's Freedom to Choose Evil. The Coins gain the Power to Increase the Freedom of the disgraced Fallen by allowing them to tap that same mortal Right to Choose Evil.  Since the Swords arguably Impede Freedom, and the promotion of Freedom is the stated definition of Good in the DV, such Restraint would be fundamentally counter to the MO of the Heavenly Host, which is why the Coins gain a balancing Power.

The Noose = Retribution:  This is the representation of Judgement, and the inescapable consequences of mortal Choice.  It grants access to a Curse, symbolic of the Jew's Choice to free Barnabas rather than Jesus, and Im thinking a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself).

your ideas for the 5 objects from the vault are kinda similar to mine that I posted in the other thread. I like your ideas. I think the only major difference we have is the Crown.

[kazimmoinuddin]

 There was this movie caled treasure guards, it was about relic hunters belonging to the church that would locate and secur items that have been touched by god i think. I wonder what relics the church has been able to keep ahold of.

[Quantus]

There was this movie caled treasure guards, it was about relic hunters belonging to the church that would locate and secur items that have been touched by god i think. I wonder what relics the church has been able to keep ahold of.

So far the answer seems to be None

[Quantus]

your ideas for the 5 objects from the vault are kinda similar to mine that I posted in the other thread. I like your ideas. I think the only major difference we have is the Crown.

Agreed.  Though part of the problem (with mine) is that I cant quite decide how much of the Passion events would have been pre-planned by Jesus vs some other agency.  What I mean is that I am going on the general assumption that the items were specifically Crafted ahead of time rather than being Empowered in the act (per traditional Dogma), but whether they were doing so with benevolent intentions toward Jesus or not could change things some.  For example, your idea for the crown would be a more benevolent thing as it would empower him to complete his "mission," wereas the Throned Manacle idea would be more about the jailers restraining their victim (regardless of how cooperative the subject actually is). 



PS for everyone else, here is Phariah's list:

just guessing here. using my vast MMO gaming experience and DnD lore/ knowledge base.

 Thorn Crown :Christ was given the Crown before his march w/ the Cross. could it have some type of enh stamina/ endurance thing, pain suppression, damage mitigation? sort of like the Winter Mantle but not coming from the individual but the faith magic. something cleansing like also might fit. also was supposed to be a joke calling him the king of the Jews. might it also project and aura that aids/ supports allies?

Shroud of Turin : healing and resurrection I am thinking. they way I see it maybe the one previously seen is not the true Shroud but one of 2 other possibilities. one is a wrap used to cover a persons head before they are enshrouded. the other is the cloth used by the woman who wiped Jesus' face on his march w/ the Cross. this would explain why the Shroud did not work on Persephone, it was not the true Shroud. it might have the faith juice but not the true power of resurrection imbued within the one Harry just got. makes me wonder if he will try it on her to test it and get Marcone to owe him again.

the Plaque. : wonder if it some type of item that would allow someone to learn the true name of someone, even it's pronunciation. used in sealing someone or their powers, bind them/ entrap them.

the Knife/ Spearhead of Longinus : standard myth is it allows the user to become unbeatable. I think it is like Quantus was saying. something like and anti-entropy curse thingy. if anyone is a Marvel fan out you will recognize these two, Longshot and Domino, they had probability altering fields which had things go the right way for them in random situations. also the thing about it being able to kill anything even god-like beings fits it also.

Chalice : most myths involving this talk about healing/ rejuvenation/ immortality. wonder if this would be able to cleanse Black Magic taint or used to help Harry get rid of the WK Mantle?

just some WAGs but think a few might be close.

[Lawgiver]

That first part would mean she lied at the end of CD as it pertained to how Maeve got N-fected and when. Which as we all know, she cannot do. The only argument one can make is 'well she can be wrong.' Wrong for 150 years is unlikely. That Nemesis only used Maeve NOW when things like the Well were unprotected for 148 of those years is also immensely unlikely unless Nemesis is the worst planner ever.

If she were already N-fected, yes she could.

Given that the major powers in the books think very long term, it would be no surprise if Nemesis had infected Maeve a century or more ago and left her there as a sleeper with instructions to make as little disturbance as possible until they could get a better foothold. This would have allowed her to assess all sorts of capabilities and weaknesses within Winter, some of Summer, etc. We've no really good idea how long she may have been working on Aurora to finally "turn" her at an appropriate time, or how long she may have been working on Cat Sith, etc., etc. Not acting strictly according to her nature, by being delinquent in her duties, seems -- to me -- a strong clue that something was wrong with her long before the books began.

If (and yes 'if' can't be proven), as I surmised in another thread, Mab had somehow been involved in the long term planning and execution of the "complex series of events" JB says is required for the creation of a Starborn, perhaps Maeve's dereliction was a hint to her that something was wrong and she began the Project with an eye towards the outcome(s) she's getting. She 'cured' Lea, yes, but perhaps as a member of the Royalty Maeve was too strong for that method to work... execution and replacement being the only 'fix'... which would be why she told Harry (the weapon she'd been building for so long) to kill Maeve, the (or just one) target the weapon was built to deal with.

Presuming Maeve couldn't lie with evidence present that suggest otherwise doesn't wash with me. Sorry.
/shrug

[Eldest Gruff]

If she were already N-fected, yes she could.

Given that the major powers in the books think very long term, it would be no surprise if Nemesis had infected Maeve a century or more ago and left her there as a sleeper with instructions to make as little disturbance as possible until they could get a better foothold. This would have allowed her to assess all sorts of capabilities and weaknesses within Winter, some of Summer, etc. We've no really good idea how long she may have been working on Aurora to finally "turn" her at an appropriate time, or how long she may have been working on Cat Sith, etc., etc. Not acting strictly according to her nature, by being delinquent in her duties, seems -- to me -- a strong clue that something was wrong with her long before the books began.

If (and yes 'if' can't be proven), as I surmised in another thread, Mab had somehow been involved in the long term planning and execution of the "complex series of events" JB says is required for the creation of a Starborn, perhaps Maeve's dereliction was a hint to her that something was wrong and she began the Project with an eye towards the outcome(s) she's getting. She 'cured' Lea, yes, but perhaps as a member of the Royalty Maeve was too strong for that method to work... execution and replacement being the only 'fix'... which would be why she told Harry (the weapon she'd been building for so long) to kill Maeve, the (or just one) target the weapon was built to deal with.

Presuming Maeve couldn't lie with evidence present that suggest otherwise doesn't wash with me. Sorry.
/shrug

Mab. It would mean Mab lied at the end of CD, wasn't talking about Maeve. You're responding to a point with based on a misunderstanding and the premise is faulty to begin with since the Queen of Air and Darkness already told us how it happened and thus that gives us the general when.