Author Topic: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]  (Read 67196 times)

Offline Quantus

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2015, 05:43:13 PM »
How do we reconcile Ferro caring about Sirio dying then? Separate WOJ attributes his reaction to basically 'Ferro would not have cared about some little D dragon nobody'. That being the case, if someone did step up to ascend to the role or duties then what does it matter to him if Sirio died? Coupled with the third WOJ that you essentially can't just go around saying you killed a Dragon because those in power will think you're insane...upsetting the 'status quo'...that if someone else took the role it ought not to matter.

Which is also why I don't like the idea of Dragon's being mantles. Too many ppl per in-book reaction and WOJ seem to be averse to what happened to Siriothrax dying that it doesn't make sense if the role just got interchanged. No need to be as bent out of shape about it then.
Hmm, fair points all. 

Well, in the case of other people's reactions, I think they fall into two categories: the low end might not really appreciate the difference between the Smaug-like dragons that St George fought and the actual Dragons, while the upper end that knows better would be the sort that would not seek retribution against a Knight of the Cross acting while On-Duty, if for no other reason than that they'd consider him the Tool of a larger being. 

In the case of Ferro's reaction; Michael, a mortal, /did/ manage to kill 1/3rd of all Dragon kind; regardless of cosmic fallout that would have to be an unpleasant thought for a being of Ferro's class (and longevity).  And just because the ball doesnt get dropped entirely doesnt mean there wouldnt be a massive upheaval involved;  Mab has an understudy waiting in the wings at all times, but... 

The Dragons were /once/ keepers of the Cosmic Balances.  When asked recently for an example, JB said "the Turning of the Seasons, stuff like that" (from memory).  So that one example at least is clearly one of the bits that have been taken over by Humanity and Human-based agents (ie the Sidhe).  Im less clear on how much actual responsibility they have, and how much influence otherwise, or if it's mostly just residual honor.  Im thinking of the analogy of the Queen of England here; relatively little actual Power compared to the Old Days, but still enough of a Symbol to matter and to cause a massive storm if killed.  (this came up recently when discussing the relative security forces around the Offices of the Queen vs the US President, as shown in a Nicholas Cage movie). 

And Im not really thinking Mantles persay, not in the sense of what passed from Maeve to Molly, etc. (those are more fully formed with personality/style/theme of their own).   But the role, the Purpose behind those mantles or that drives those mantles, the Responsibilities to the Universe.  The Power.  Mab is a Mantle; Gate Guardian is a Purpose.   To fit it into the fae scheme, not he mantle directly, but what I imagine that the Power that would flow into the Court if they were sacrificed using the Table.

Thoughts?



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Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2015, 07:49:07 PM »
Hmm, fair points all. 

Well, in the case of other people's reactions, I think they fall into two categories: the low end might not really appreciate the difference between the Smaug-like dragons that St George fought and the actual Dragons, while the upper end that knows better would be the sort that would not seek retribution against a Knight of the Cross acting while On-Duty, if for no other reason than that they'd consider him the Tool of a larger being. 

In the case of Ferro's reaction; Michael, a mortal, /did/ manage to kill 1/3rd of all Dragon kind; regardless of cosmic fallout that would have to be an unpleasant thought for a being of Ferro's class (and longevity).  And just because the ball doesnt get dropped entirely doesnt mean there wouldnt be a massive upheaval involved;  Mab has an understudy waiting in the wings at all times, but... 

The Dragons were /once/ keepers of the Cosmic Balances.  When asked recently for an example, JB said "the Turning of the Seasons, stuff like that" (from memory).  So that one example at least is clearly one of the bits that have been taken over by Humanity and Human-based agents (ie the Sidhe).  Im less clear on how much actual responsibility they have, and how much influence otherwise, or if it's mostly just residual honor.  Im thinking of the analogy of the Queen of England here; relatively little actual Power compared to the Old Days, but still enough of a Symbol to matter and to cause a massive storm if killed.  (this came up recently when discussing the relative security forces around the Offices of the Queen vs the US President, as shown in a Nicholas Cage movie). 

And Im not really thinking Mantles persay, not in the sense of what passed from Maeve to Molly, etc. (those are more fully formed with personality/style/theme of their own).   But the role, the Purpose behind those mantles or that drives those mantles, the Responsibilities to the Universe.  The Power.  Mab is a Mantle; Gate Guardian is a Purpose.   To fit it into the fae scheme, not he mantle directly, but what I imagine that the Power that would flow into the Court if they were sacrificed using the Table.

Thoughts?



[Spoiler = Misc Dragon WOJ's for reference]
[/spoiler][/spoiler]

The notion is perfectly acceptable to me as a whole but we have one glaring question that needs answering, and possibly one that ties back to everything that isn't a mantle.

Where did Siriothrax's power go? Where does any power go when one dies who doesn't bear a mantle?

Ferro and those of his ilk representing the status quo have no need to fret of Sirio's death IF that power or purpose was undertaken. Lax though he might have been in his duties (or better yet Maeve who we know for certain was) the power remained. But unlike with Maeve, Sirio died and his power went....and then the conversation stops. The inclination however is to suspect, on my part anyway, that his Power is gone. Not destroyed since we know per SK it can only be changed...but that means the change was not of benefit to Ferro or those currently in power. The status quo changed.

So if all power comes from somewhere where did it end up going? WERE Dragons once 'mantles' in a more traditional sense like the Fae but once they lost that cosmic significance they lost the ability to perma-anchor their power in one form or another to the Earth like the Queens who even if they die will be replaced? Does that mean all power was once free and clear then harnessed into the ancient mantles and purposes, the like of which can only be held by groups who obtain that cosmic level of significance?

Because we know Ferro is Mab's equal for Power. But the same is no longer true for Purpose. So perhaps his magic, like Sirio (formidable though they both would have been), no longer can be considered a mantle (if it ever was) because of the importance lost to the Dragons.

Questions always lead to more of the same it seems  ::)
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Offline knnn

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #107 on: June 30, 2015, 08:15:55 PM »
How about "Entropy"?  ;)

Just because power conservation laws exist doesn't mean that every last bit of magical energy needs to be "accounted for" by a named entity.  Consider our world where conservation of energy presumably exists, and yet while the total energy in the universe (assuming closed system, yada yada) is constant, we have things like energy sources getting used up.

Presumably this type of arrangement must exist at some level in the Dresdenverse, since wizards can beget more wizards without sacrificing their power.   Based on what we know, the power of Faith might work in a similar manner. 

Thus, I don't think it's implausible to say that the sum total of "claimed" magical power (through mantles, faith, e.g.) is less than 0.1%  of the total available magical power out there.  If so, "releasing" all the magic held by Siriothrax, considerable as it was is simply converting a relatively small amount of the total magic power out there to "unclaimed" status.

i.e. "Entropy".   ;)
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Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #108 on: June 30, 2015, 08:22:05 PM »
How about "Entropy"?  ;)

Just because power conservation laws exist doesn't mean that every last bit of magical energy needs to be "accounted for" by a named entity.  Consider our world where conservation of energy presumably exists, and yet while the total energy in the universe (assuming closed system, yada yada) is constant, we have things like energy sources getting used up.

Presumably this type of arrangement must exist at some level in the Dresdenverse, since wizards can beget more wizards without sacrificing their power.   Based on what we know, the power of Faith might work in a similar manner. 

Thus, I don't think it's implausible to say that the sum total of "claimed" magical power (through mantles, faith, e.g.) is less than 0.1%  of the total available magical power out there.  If so, "releasing" all the magic held by Siriothrax, considerable as it was is simply converting a relatively small amount of the total magic power out there to "unclaimed" status.

i.e. "Entropy".   ;)

I tend to agree. I think his Power went back into that nebulous ether and therefore Dragons, (even if they ever were mantles), at a minimum aren't now.
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Offline Foxed

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2015, 08:26:04 PM »
I thought it was pretty clear that his power went to Where the Dragons Went.
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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2015, 08:28:22 PM »
I thought it was pretty clear that his power went to Where the Dragons Went.

You'll have to clarify a bit cuz all i'm currently picturing is Dragonheart and Draco/Sean Connery turning into a star in the sky  :P
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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2015, 08:32:00 PM »
Pratchett's Guards! Guards! Although, in that case, if I have my end-of-the-book summation correct, the dragons came from the minds of humans, and then went back into the dark reaches of our imagination when we were done believing in them.
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Offline megarows

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2015, 08:45:59 PM »
Quote
Where did Siriothrax's power go? Where does any power go when one dies who doesn't bear a mantle?

Entropy of some kind, probably.  Were it Dark Souls or Skyrim, Michael could've scored a nice dragon soul though.

Quote
once they lost that cosmic significance

What significance?

If the fae queens got their power from knife-murdering Hecate, and Hecate got hers from knife-murdering humans (well, ascention rituals, anyway), it's just an artificial construct from a lot of knife murdering.  Nothing natural or holy there.

So what's Butcher's point with the fae mantles, anyway?  That weather systems didn't exist before knife-murdering and black magic ascention rituals?  Sounds like one of those "dinosaur bones are 200 years old" arguments.  And if black magic ascention rituals are vital for the natural order and create mantles that aren't inherently evil, why do we keep wasting time in each novel worrying about petty things like morality, laws of magic, or anything else?

Anyway, do we even know for sure if the dragons were natural, or just someone being a knife-murdering tardbeast again?

Moreover, if entities with artificially created mantles of stolen life have insinuated themselves into natural processes in the universe, and the laws of thermodynamics apply to mantles, then they are *not* eternal.  What's going to happen when they run out and fail?

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2015, 10:18:45 PM »
Quote
Entropy of some kind, probably.
MW cuts their string and they drift off into the memory of the cosmos becoming outsiders. If you think, MW kinda is the outergate, the final barrier, the supreme unmaker, whichever. I mean there's layers to death in the DF, mortal death, spiritual death, ect. the final one is not being part of this reality at all, but as leah says even the comso's remembers, if thats so then it makes sense the comso has the vast imprints of everything that was ever unmade entirely. as a side note, I imagine this is how/why hell,hades and any other form of afterlife exists, to keep the balance of energy inside and not let it drift off to come back as, whatever the heck is outside. everything that doesn't currently exist and all that hasn't yet?
(theoretically by killing sithro Michael put him outside where he might try to find a reflection back into our world, or help greater the power of the outside in other signifigant ways. Woj dragons are on par with archangels so imagine the sudden void from one of those ceasing to exist, that void is now outside power)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 10:21:55 PM by wizard nelson »

Offline megarows

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2015, 11:08:40 PM »
MW cuts their string and they drift off into the memory of the cosmos becoming outsiders. If you think, MW kinda is the outergate, the final barrier, the supreme unmaker, whichever. I mean there's layers to death in the DF, mortal death, spiritual death, ect. the final one is not being part of this reality at all, but as leah says even the comso's remembers, if thats so then it makes sense the comso has the vast imprints of everything that was ever unmade entirely. as a side note, I imagine this is how/why hell,hades and any other form of afterlife exists, to keep the balance of energy inside and not let it drift off to come back as, whatever the heck is outside. everything that doesn't currently exist and all that hasn't yet?
(theoretically by killing sithro Michael put him outside where he might try to find a reflection back into our world, or help greater the power of the outside in other signifigant ways. Woj dragons are on par with archangels so imagine the sudden void from one of those ceasing to exist, that void is now outside power)

Heh, "Insomnia" + "It"?  But in "It", Pennywise was an old one herself, and had to personally rip the soul out of someone to send it Outside.  Not really what happened with Dragon Slayer Michael.

Mother Winter isn't TWG, just a human hopped up on ascension ritual meth.  She has difficulty traveling spatially, and we saw in GS that souls don't just warp to her.  So I don't think she has dominion over that kind of thing on a cosmic scale.

Offline Argonometra

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2015, 11:15:02 PM »
So what's Butcher's point with the fae mantles, anyway?  That weather systems didn't exist before knife-murdering and black magic ascention rituals?

The Fae embody dual themes: that of the seasons and that of civilization (or lack thereof). In addition to the ice-and-snow thing, the WK is wrath, the WQ is pragmatism, the WM is fear.
Originally, Hecate was the manifestation of these things- but by overpowering her and killing her, the Fae proved themselves worthy to uphold what she represented. Worthier than Hecate.

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2015, 12:00:13 AM »
Quote
Mother Winter isn't TWG, just a human hopped up on ascension ritual meth.  She has difficulty traveling spatially, and we saw in GS that souls don't just warp to her.  So I don't think she has dominion over that kind of thing on a cosmic scale.]
We have Woj MW is the original, from the beginning thing, she was never a human like MS. and your right she doesn't have the power to just rip the soul out of anything, anymore. Cause that's what her walking stick does now  ::) , funny with it she could also travel just about anywhere meaning nothing was beyond her reach. Now she's stuck in the NN but it don't mean her power much changed.
twg collects souls of believers and banishes to hell non-believers(though technically its people who believe but are evil, cause otherwise said soul would go elsewhere anyway, like if they believed in hades instead.) MW as 'baba yaga' literally ate their immortal flesh, that's why she's so beast in the first place. going outside would only be a step for humans if they believed in no sort of afterlife at all or were directly displaced by cosmic scale forces, like 'true death' e.g. MW eating your scrawny wizard ass.
(oh and Michael gave him a true death because he used the sword to do it, remember later Bob isn't sure if it could have killed a summoned demon on earth, but admits its possible based on faith, but they weren't as far as we know because A dragon on earth would dictate a new reality around itself on a comsic scale much as MW would, so if they were in the NN where its far more likely to have killed it outright. especially if the place in question was sithro's place of power either there or here on earth if he only 'put his toe in the sandbox')
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 12:13:41 AM by wizard nelson »

Offline peregrine

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #117 on: July 01, 2015, 12:35:49 AM »
The fact that MW is the first MW doesn't mean she was never a human.  We don't know what she was before she became MW, and Mab said she was mortal, it's possible, even likely, that MW was one as well.

Offline megarows

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #118 on: July 01, 2015, 01:12:08 AM »
The Fae embody dual themes: that of the seasons and that of civilization (or lack thereof). In addition to the ice-and-snow thing, the WK is wrath, the WQ is pragmatism, the WM is fear.
Originally, Hecate was the manifestation of these things- but by overpowering her and killing her, the Fae proved themselves worthy to uphold what she represented. Worthier than Hecate.

Disagree on some of the cause/effect here.  Originally Hecate was a greedy and insane human who gained power via human sacrifice in ascention rituals.  She manifested nothing other than hubris.  The universe didn't coalesce an avatar into Hecate, she was just crazy and murdered a lot of people.

No entity with a mantle created from human sacrifice -- as they all seem to be -- is absolutely anything at all.  They are artificial, synthetic.  They may claim to be otherwise, but so did the Gao'uld in Stargate.

Yet we see the fae queens / balance does have an effect on the natural world.  So we have humans who have stolen power via human sacrifice insinuating themselves into the natural order, such that they can break shit in fundamental ways.  I just don't know how that could ever possibly be a good thing, especially when the mantle's power is probably finite.

Remember Mia's speech to Susannah at Castle Discordia in "The Dark Tower"?  That.

Offline Argonometra

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Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« Reply #119 on: July 01, 2015, 01:33:10 AM »
So we have humans who have stolen power via human sacrifice insinuating themselves into the natural order

If CD was any indication, we need to worry about the opposite. Harry struggles against the Winter Mantle (the 'natural order' personified) urging him to rape and kill. When Mab shows humanity, it is a rare and unnerving thing. The Summer Mantle overwhelms Lily, making her burn the landscape and attack indiscriminately- making her threaten the man her human side loves.
Nature is not the one being (ab)used here. It may not initiate Table rituals, but it certainly dominates their participants.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 01:34:57 AM by Argonometra »