He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]

[wizard nelson]

Unless you can give me some proof that only a single knife with a leaf-shaped blade exists in the Dresdenverse, I'm going to assume for now that they're different.

Because like Eldest said, there is no way in hell Harry wouldn't stop to have an Angst-fest over a Knife that he used to commit a cold-blooded ritualistic murder showing up.

And unless YOU can prove two knives described exactly the same I'll continue to believe them to be the same, it's tough, I guess we all just have to live with that then until Jim comes don from on neigh and we receive the holy word saying as to what must be what. I suppose in DB mab didn't have morgana's atheme on her hip either

[forumghost]

Very well then: In Skin Game, Harry says that the Knife he takes from the Altar has a Brass hilt:

"And the Brass hilt of the knife clicked against the aluminum splint still on my left arm"

Medea's Bodkin on the other hand?

"I bent to take it up and found an ancient, ancient knife with a simple leaf-blade design, set into a wooden handle and wrapped with cord and leather. It was, I thought, made of bronze."

So unless someone changed the handle, they're different knives.

[wizard nelson]

On looking myself. Changes 238

An ancient, ancient knife with a simple leaf shaped blade design, set into a wood handle and wrapped in cord and leather.it was i thought made of bronze

SG 339

A knife with a wooden handle and a leaf shaped blade.

That he totally fails to notice the hilt or that it even has one is prof Harry isn't taking in all the details and those put forth were intentional. He only notices the hilt when it becomes central to the plot point of nic noticing the sound. (If not a mistake by Jim in that it's blade was bronze, a hilt isn't necessarily a handle btw, but this was either that, a pommel or a mistake and it should be bronze blade clicked, either way, wood handle)
Either way I rescind my ill gained touché' as nothing here directly contradicts my ideas and indeed collaborates it in Harry's inattentiveness to finer details.

[Phariah]

hmm ok.
first off I do like the idea of the spearhead of the Spear of Destiny being the knife and maybe giving Harry and edge kinda interesting. could also be why Nico wanted it. with that and his noose he would than become pretty much unstoppable.

now as to the Bodkin and vault blade.
sorry but I do not see how or why the Bodkin would be in the vault at all. it is in Mab's possession. another thing, the items have to do with Christianity, the Bodkin does not have anything to do with it.

Changes the blade is a bronze leafhead blade with a wooden handle wrapped in cord and leather.
SG the blade is a leafhead blade with a wooden handle. no mention of cord or leather. you do not go around altering relic of power.

Changes the Bodkin had a bloodthirsty feel to it. "energy surged through the little blade, power that was unfettered and wild, that mocked limits and scoffed at restraint. not evil, as such- but hungry and filled with desire to partake in its portion of the cycle of life and death. it thirsted for bloodshed." that does not sound at all like a holy relic.

SG when he scans the objects he relates their power to Amoracchius, a holy relic. when he touches the knife he would recognize the power. "even that brief contact was like touching a live wire. tingles flew up my arm and set every hair of my body on end." does not sound like the blood thirsty effect from the Bodkin, but from what he has felt previously from Amorachius. GP ".. it fairly hummed with power, vibrating in my fingers." than later, "something that hummed quietly, a silent vibration of power that ran through the plastic and into my hand. a vibration I recognized." "still, it buzzed with that quiet, deep power, at once reassuring and intimidating."

when Harry states that the bronze hilt clicked against his brace, I have to believe that is an error. since the handle was already described as a wooden one. hilt- noun, the handle of a weapon or tool, especially a sword, dagger, or knife. syn. handgrip. I think it was meant to be the crossguard or pommel that was bronze and tapped his brace. which seems more likely to hit the brace than the actual handle. unless the error is the handle description. in which case it is still not the Bodkin.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Doing a little research, I discovered that the myth of Medea carving up her own children because of her husband's (Jason of The Golden Fleece fame) infidelity is a very old myth, definitely Bronze Age.  She killed a lot of people, though usually she used poison or magic to do so.  In any case, when she used a blade, it would have been bronze.  I have to wonder why a bronze blade would be part of a collection of Christian artifacts, particularly if said artifacts are all related to the Crucifixion.  Roman swords, daggers and spear point were made out of iron and imported steel.

On an unrelated point, Medea was sometimes described as a priestess of Hecate.  So she knew the Queens of Faerie, possibly before they were the Queens of Faerie.  Everyone (really ancient) in the supernatural world used to be something and somebody else.     

[Mr. Death]

The two knives being the same makes no sense. Everything else in the vault is extremely clearly from the Crucifixion, Harry describes the power of the two as completely different, and yes, this is exactly the kind of detail that, if it was present, Dresden would absolutely mention.

[wizard nelson]

sp you can catalogue all 5 items drom the crucifixion uh? then do so please. as actually you probly cannot place the plaq, orthe knife without making it a spear. and as was pointed out medea was before christ, it makes reworking it first to a spear then back again illogically done anyway.

[Second Aristh]

sp you can catalogue all 5 items drom the crucifixion uh? then do so please. as actually you probly cannot place the plaq, orthe knife without making it a spear. and as was pointed out medea was before christ, it makes reworking it first to a spear then back again illogically done anyway.

The plaque was on the cross with the letters INRI.   
From wikipedia:  IESVS·NAZARENVS·REX·IVDÆORVM (Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum), in English reads as "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews"
(the letter J hasn't always existed, same with the letter u)

[Eldest Gruff]

sp you can catalogue all 5 items drom the crucifixion uh? then do so please. as actually you probly cannot place the plaq, orthe knife without making it a spear. and as was pointed out medea was before christ, it makes reworking it first to a spear then back again illogically done anyway.

Clay cup = Grail
Circle of thorny branches = Crown of Thorns
Cloth = Shroud
Knife = head of the Spear of Longinus
Wooden placard with faded symbols = INRI, 'Jesus, king of the Jews' the plague above Jesus as he is crucified denoting his 'crime'.

So they all fit the crucifixion theme just fine, knife and plaque included, as has been noted for some time now. This isn't a 'new' idea, its been the thought since basically a few weeks after SG came out.

[Foxed]

The Spear of Longinus is also deeply tied into the post-Crucifixion Grail mythos, as the Fisher King possessed both.

So, not for nothing, but it would be weirder if the knife wasn't the Spearhead of Longinus.

[Second Aristh]

Also, just because the items are all associated with the crucifixion doesn't mean they can't also be other mythical items.  Hades implies that they've been used as weapons before Harry got there.  Those stories would have added onto the legends associated with the items.  I just don't think the knife is also Medea's bodkin.

[kazimmoinuddin]

Lea claimed the tainted blade she received was a a match for the sword she traded away. I could easily see the blade from the vault becoming such a weapon, but that tainted blade make me wonder just what it is.

[Second Aristh]

Lea claimed the tainted blade she received was a a match for the sword she traded away. I could easily see the blade from the vault becoming such a weapon, but that tainted blade make me wonder just what it is.

Have you seen this WoJ?

What is the Black Athame, and what is it’s relation to Medea’s Bodkin?
The Black Athame was Morgan La Fay’s athame.  That was the one that got traded around in Grave Peril… at the vampire costume party.  Well an Athame is the original knife that was used in magic, and while they aren’t necessarily magical themselves, if you involve them in enough really cool big things that are going on, they start gaining their own sort of power and their own sort of awareness.  Which is not to say they become intelligent or anything, but they become very extremely dangerous tools.  And that one was a very, very dangerous tool, on a level with Ammoracchius, which is why it got traded that way.  Medea’s Bodkin is another Athame that is far older, and is used more classically documented witches.  The ones who actually survived falls of several empires there –you still hear about them- Also a very bad news kind of implement, just so you know. 

[Quantus]

A Wizard's staff is supposed to have a Knob on the end, not a Knife.

Yes, but in Changes Odin was using his Spear (presumably Odin's mythic spear Gungnir) /as/ a wizards staff.  It would appeal to me for harry to mount the spear of destiny on his staff, giving an upgrade to both.  Its always been the point and not the shaft that was important in the histories, but if the shaft were an enchanted Wizards staff (especially the muiltpurpose, layered version he had in SG) it could be all kinds of fun.   

[Eldest Gruff]

Yes, but in Changes Odin was using his Spear (presumably Odin's mythic spear Gungnir) /as/ a wizards staff.  It would appeal to me for harry to mount the spear of destiny on his staff, giving an upgrade to both.  Its always been the point and not the shaft that was important in the histories, but if the shaft were an enchanted Wizards staff (especially the muiltpurpose, layered version he had in SG) it could be all kinds of fun.   

Besides, Harry's staff will always have a knob at the end so long as he is the one holding it