self sponsered magic

[potestas]

the paranet papers helped define sponsered magic a bit more placing some limits to how much you can call on the sponser and such. Kind of made it a one time per story thing considering what can happen if you draw on the power to much and the sponser can make you pay with will to power type stuff. That stuff is represented by the gamemaster. If the player doesnt want to do it the gamemater is within his rights to do it because its part of the story. Your indebt with a greater power. With self spondered magic that doesnt really exist. Kimmler necromancy being the ingame example of self sponsered magic.I have asked this before but what kind of limit is there to self sponsered magic. Especially in light of the new rules that you use any of your abilities via sponser or even create powers for use at the drop of hat. Isn't "self" sponser just that. You doing the magic. Or does it simply represent a greater understanding of a particular type of magic and allow you to start higher on the ladder then your conviction would normally allow for those roles related to your speciality. Should we create a track to provide an upper limit to its use before you are tired. A track would help, much like soulfire track does. I kind of like that idea for self sponsered magic. anyone else been thinking on this?

[ravnwing]

This is a really really interesting question, and I look forward to hearing other peoples answers. My thought is that it is not technically self sponsored. Kemmler had an incredible understanding of the nature of necromancy as a whole. He basically pioneered the field, so he was not taking power from himself, he was taking power from an understanding no one else had. Its like Issac Newton and Newtonian Physics. He did not change any laws of how things work, he simply wrote them down so that other people could reference them.

[Quantus]

This is an intriguing idea.  My first reaction was "of course not, if you are your own sponsor than it's just you casting, not sponsored." I'd call it a hard restriction in the vien of a Bootstrap Paradox (IE you cant pick yourself up by your own shoelaces).  But the example of Kemmler is an interesting point, he was doing odd things to vastly expand his powerbase. 

If it were me, Id say that it's /possible/ but that it requires some sort of external Power repository (IoP or Ritual Site, maybe), and the Sponsor mechanics are being used as a way to describe how much you can safely channel at a given time. For Kemmler this might have been as simple as a massive necromantic battery that he'd been slowly charging up (likely with a Darkhallow Endgame).  But the big catch is that you wouldnt be having some sort of external intelligence managing and/or regulating the Energy, so a self-sponsor would need to have an upper-tier understanding of the magics involved, or risk some sort of catastrophic failure. 

[dragoonbuster]

"Self sponsored" magic is a misnomer gained by trying to fit the type of spellcasting in question into Sponsored mechanics. "Self-sponsored" magic just represents a greater talent/skill/experience in a particular field that supercedes simple Specialization; it provides expanded ability in that field (primary, evothaum).

Kemmlerian necromancers, for instance, can't really do anything any "normal" necromancer couldn't. They're just better at it and can do it really fast (evothaum).

A stress track is an interesting thought, but I think that doesn't really fit with what "Self-sponsored" magic is; it's greater knowledge/skill applied to magic, and shouldn't be limited by how many times you've already done that kind of magic that day.

Taking Debt to Self-Sponsored magic is different. Some GMs allow, some don't; for me, it's conditional. Using the Kemmlerian example, I'd allow one or two "debt" points to be taken at any given time, and use aspects related to their necromancer for the compels (most likely a Lawbreaker aspect, given the type of magic we're talking about). Taking sponsor debt for Kemmlerian magic would drive you further towards using more of it to solve your problems, etc.

[Taran]

I could see various 'secrets' that normal practitioners might not have.  Maybe Kemmlerarian necromancers are really good, but maybe they power their undead with souls that they use as batteries(for example).  So, taking sponsored debt might drive you to kill more innocent people to power your undead or maintain your research.

I've also seen the interpretation that they are tapping into the powers of Death itself.  So, in a sense, Death becomes the sponsor.  Not so much an intelligent entity but a force of nature that draws the practitioner in and/or influences how they think and feel.

For other types of 'self-sponsored' magic, like a pyromancer for example, compels might revolve around an intense need to start fires.  Or, if you look at the symbolic aspects of fire, it could revolve around anger, purification, impulsiveness etc...  These aspects then colour the wizards outlook and influence how (s)he (re)acts to a situation - in the form of compels.

[Dan from Chicago]

For other types of 'self-sponsored' magic, like a pyromancer for example, compels might revolve around an intense need to start fires.  Or, if you look at the symbolic aspects of fire, it could revolve around anger, purification, impulsiveness etc...  These aspects then colour the wizards outlook and influence how (s)he (re)acts to a situation - in the form of compels.

Honestly that just sounds like a vanilla aspect to me. The pyromancer has the Trouble Firebug.

[dragoonbuster]

Honestly that just sounds like a vanilla aspect to me. The pyromancer has the Trouble Firebug.

That's right--but what Taran is saying, is with, say, Superior Pyromancy (a "self-sponsored" magic), the PC could take "Self-"Sponsor Debtm, and the compels to pay off the debt later would come against Firebug, etc--but that compel doesn't go away if the PC buys it off, isntead of a normal compel to Firebug. Thus, diving deeper into that kind of magic truly compels you to continue to do so.

[Taran]

Honestly that just sounds like a vanilla aspect to me. The pyromancer has the Trouble Firebug.

Yeah, what dragoonbuster said:  You don't get a FP for those compels because you were already paid up front.  And they stick around until you pay it off.

[Quantus]

I still think there needs to be some external interaction for it to be Sponsored and not just that you're really really good.  I can get behind "Self-sponsored" in a sense that you've invested time and energy and Power into some original Construct/Artifact that acts as a non-sentient conduit for the Sponsor benefits.  But it needs to be more than just "Im really good at X so it just works differently for me." It needs to be something external, something you are interacting with differently than your normal casting.  An IoP works, like a Lich's Phylactery ro some mythic Gem or whatnot.  A Place of Power works too, a prepared ritual site or alter or Ley Line Convergence that you've built on. I could even see a Familiar that acts as a conduit to primal energies (rather than a specific Spirit).

Honestly I really like the idea of a Soulfire style stress track.  From a conceptual standpoint Soulfire IS Self-Sponsored Magic in the truest Sense: you are tapping into the Power of your own Innermost Self and converting it to Power.  Anyone have any idea's for what that would look like?

[Taran]

Slightly off topic.

The mental stress track represents your Being - your sense of self.

I always thought the current magic system represented soul fire perfectly and that there should be some other mechanic for regular spell casting.

When Harry pushed his casting, he always seemed to get physically tired or get head aches etc.. Which all seem to be physical consequences.  So I think that it would model things better if regular spell casting were based off the physical track and soul fire was based on the mental track. 

Not that I would actually change it - there's lots of issues with doing it that way.  I just think it reflects the books better.   Maybe the power would still be based on conviction since spell casting is all about Will and perception but the side effects from regular casting seems more physical. 

Anyways - that's just an aside.  I don't mean to derail the thread.

[Quantus]

Slightly off topic.

The mental stress track represents your Being - your sense of self.

I always thought the current magic system represented soul fire perfectly and that there should be some other mechanic for regular spell casting.

When Harry pushed his casting, he always seemed to get physically tired or get head aches etc.. Which all seem to be physical consequences.  So I think that it would model things better if regular spell casting were based off the physical track and soul fire was based on the mental track. 

Not that I would actually change it - there's lots of issues with doing it that way.  I just think it reflects the books better.   Maybe the power would still be based on conviction since spell casting is all about Will and perception but the side effects from regular casting seems more physical. 

Anyways - that's just an aside.  I don't mean to derail the thread.

Physical in the sense that they are typical physical symptoms of Mental Fatigue.  There are other more clearly mental symptoms Im sure, but even if one could easily notice your own mental impairment from the 1st POV, Harry usually isnt introspective enough to notice much.  But he gets loopy, and often lets his mind wander off on some abstraction until something jerks his attention back

[dragoonbuster]

Which all seem to be physical consequences. 

I think that's more Harry than the 'Verse's casting paradigm. He's taking backlash to make his spells go off correctly when he gets physically drained. Mental Consequences are headaches, (yeah, that's iffy as "Mental", but oh well), a shorter temper (huh, imagine that), etc.

I still think there needs to be some external interaction for it to be Sponsored and not just that you're really really good.  I can get behind "Self-sponsored" in a sense that you've invested time and energy and Power into some original Construct/Artifact that acts as a non-sentient conduit for the Sponsor benefits.

I disagree. I think the issue is mainly coming from the name. If we separated it and called it "Superior Casting", it has a different feel. And it explains the kind of difference in ability that any random wizard has with ectomancy compared to someone like Morty. I like the Superior Casting styles as a fix for the common complaint that there isn't a good way to distinguish a Focused Practitioner's spellcasting from a Wizard's, since FPs can't take specializations. It also gives you another direction to go with wizards besides "another Specialization!"

[jftravis]

I've seen "self-sponsored" magic here before, but haven't yet commented on any of them. To my own mind, there's no such thing in the "canon physics" of the game universe. My own take is that, if a type of magic doesn't have a clear-cut sponsor (such as Kemmlerian Necromancy), then the power itself IS the sponsor, with it's own (often very simple and absolute) agenda and limits to what it will freely do for the user. In the example here, Kemmlerian Necromancy's agenda is "control death". It's essentially an abstract concept. It allows Cowl to shrug off "death by falling car" and allows Kumori to resurrect someone, perhaps by "stealing his death".

[DFJunkie]

While Kemmlerian necromancy doesn't have a sponsor per se, meaning that there's no big entity deciding who gets to use it, and how, it does have an agenda.  It's an ideal, all about self aggrandizement through the practice of necromancy (or whatever interpretation you and your GM prefer, but I like mine).  Since the GM is always the sponsor anyway going into sponsor debt just means that the GM can then force you to ask "What Would Kemmler Do" some time down the road. 

Similarly, we've heard about the Merlin throwing around wards in a very evothaum sort of way, to the point where "Sponsored Magic: Unyielding Defense" could be an option for someone trained like him.  In his case sponsor debt would cause him to make the Council engage in purely defensive warfare with an aggressive enemy, be highly suspicious of any new or untested allies, or cut off staunch supporters rather than take a risk in defending them.  (To be fair,

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Peabody's ink might have done that as well

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