alright been mashing rules

[potestas]

new power option spell and physical immunity, low cost way to give you temp immunity to physical damage, not so bad all on its own for 1 refresh you have a spell that you can keep going for a fair amount of time that keeps the bads from ever doing physical harm.

 but thats not all, combine this with spell defense using defensive roll. Now you can enact a shield spell that is actually armor against all physical attacks and you can do it at the drop of a hat. Now while the description focuses on shielding not armor it doesnt rule out armor or anyother on the fly spell you can use to defend. It only says you cant convert the shield into armor and it ends when the turn does. You could easily opt for armor instead of shield and absorb the hits for one turn. But with the new option power option spell and physical immunity you have the same spell-armor, to its extreme conclusion and it will last longer then a turn.

I think a nice over powered way to boost the defense of wizards

[Sanctaphrax]

new power option spell and physical immunity, low cost way to give you temp immunity to physical damage, not so bad all on its own for 1 refresh you have a spell that you can keep going for a fair amount of time that keeps the bads from ever doing physical harm.

Hang on. Spell just reduces the cost of the Power by 1. It doesn't drop it to 1.

Physical Immunity is already overpowered, there's no need to make it worse.

[jackbythesea]

How exactly does this new mechanic work? Sounds like the custom power used to model Aristedes' magic.

[potestas]

well you have a new ability called "power spell". it has a refresh cost of 1 i think. basically it allows you to use a power as a spell but its duration is determined by your success rolled. So I combined physical immunity with the new spell power rule for 1 refresh. Now my character doesnt have the power physical immunity but he does have a spell he can cast that duplicates it and it will last as long as his successes. The roll dosent determine power o the spell but how many exchanges it will last. In all other ways its a spell.

Now there is a new rule that allows wizards to take defensive actions with spells(something I have always done in anycase.) basicallly you can summon  shield for one exchange instead of rolling athletics to dodge. The ability has all the same drawbacks of using a spell fatigue back lash and since your essentially casting multiple spells in an exchange will lead to exhaustion pretty quick if you over do it.

The rule also says you cant change a sheild into armor its just a shield, but it doesnt say you cant summon armor in the first place. Armor is the same thing as toughness and in the extreme physical immunity So as far as the rules are concerened at least by logical extension you can learn the spell power physical immunity(which is good all by itself) but there is no good reason rulewise why you can instant cast that also as your defense roll and have it last many exchanges since armor and shield are interchangeable and toughness and the extreme of toughness "physical immunity are the same thing.The rule just says once you cast shield you cant change it to armor, you have to cast it and leave it one way.

to be fair a shield spell with enough at about 8 or higher is no different then physical immunity anyway, only a plot device is going to get though it so its not  over powered its just another expression of why if you play dresden files rpg you probably should play a wizard or play where no one is a wizard. I like it and have already added it to my mains

[Sanctaphrax]

well you have a new ability called "power spell". it has a refresh cost of 1 i think.

You're wrong. It has a Refresh cost of +1, which you add to the cost of the Power it modified. So Physical Immunity (Spell) would cost 7 before taking the Catch into account.

The rule also says you cant change a sheild into armor its just a shield, but it doesnt say you cant summon armor in the first place.

True, it doesn't say you can't. But it also doesn't say you can. And by default, the rules don't let you.

Armor is the same thing as toughness and in the extreme physical immunity

Nope. That's just not true. Armour is armour and Toughness is Toughness.

to be fair a shield spell with enough at about 8 or higher is no different then physical immunity anyway, only a plot device is going to get though it so its not  over powered...

It is overpowered. You said so yourself in your first post.

And a shield spell of 8 is totally breakable. Not even close to Physical Immunity.

And of course it's important to keep in mind that PI-as-a-spell would have a much longer duration than the shield since you don't need to spend any shifts on power.

...if you play dresden files rpg you probably should play a wizard or play where no one is a wizard.

That's really only the case when the GM actually tries to make wizards overpowered. Which you shouldn't do, because the archetypal DFRPG party is neither wizard-less nor all wizards.

[potestas]

You're wrong. It has a Refresh cost of +1, which you add to the cost of the Power it modified. So Physical Immunity (Spell) would cost 7 before taking the Catch into account.

True, it doesn't say you can't. But it also doesn't say you can. And by default, the rules don't let you.

Nope. That's just not true. Armour is armour and Toughness is Toughness.

It is overpowered. You said so yourself in your first post.

And a shield spell of 8 is totally breakable. Not even close to Physical Immunity.

And of course it's important to keep in mind that PI-as-a-spell would have a much longer duration than the shield since you don't need to spend any shifts on power.

That's really only the case when the GM actually tries to make wizards overpowered. Which you shouldn't do, because the archetypal DFRPG party is neither wizard-less nor all wizards.

 the +1 to the spell power for the power makes sense,  it makes it less attractive and I would prefere a temp spell to actually having a wizard have it all the time. 

Actually by default I always assume the opposite... that I can do it. So that would actually be a matter of opinion.

As with the difference between toughness and armor that is a matter of opinion as well. I see no difference between the two. They do the same thing reduce actual damage.They have different names is all. Physical immunity is the same as toughness, but toughness taken to the extreme and there is no reason we cant as wizards dupilcate the effect. You may think its OP I do not. If a power can be dupicated as a defensive spell I see no reason not to let a wizard do it. It is magic after all, and if i know a spell that makes me immune to damage mores the better for me and the worse for my enemies.

I have noticed over the course of reading many of your posts you seem to limit the power of wizards in the game. If you notice I always seek to increase their abilitys. We see the game different. I see dresden as a modern version of ars magica. The books and the game are about wizards, because they are the subject matter they should be the focus of the game. Essentially a dresden wizard can do anything he wants by act of will. In game we limit this with dice and numbers so we can play it out but in point of fact they are mortal gods. They create and destroy out of nothing with nothing but their wills. So in point of fact I do make my wizards stronger, if you played in my game that is the expereince you would have.

I have never understood why some would play a game about wizards and then seek to limit their abilites because it might be unbalancing for someone who plays a mortal. its akin to playing a Grog in ars magica and complaining that the wizards have all the fun. Now if you want you game to be that way cool, I think wizards are the focus and anything that makes the game better for wizards I am up for.

I noticed that many changes to the spell casting rules allow wizards to duplicate powers without actually having them, self transformations being one of them. The new rules make it much easier then any devised in these forums...that is any not devised by me. The new rules regarding personal transformation are pretty much what I use and have expressed on these forums. They added some drawbacks that I didn't but darn close.

Wizards are always supposed to be strong. Stronger then vamps and shapeshifters, demons nothing in the game aside from PD have the same "potential". Thats why I suggesed that if you don't want your other players overshadowed by a wizard and you dont want to run everyone as a knight of the courts dont include a wizard in the game. What wizards can do is OP compared to the other things you can play. I suggest the troupe style of role playing introduced by ars magica.

 In Ars magica everyone makes a wizard, a companion and some Grogs(if you dont now what a grog is they are the red shirts of that game) and they rotate around depending what each player/troupe needs or wants to play that session. Its a good idea when one type of character clearly outshines the other playable type of characters. Its a better then nerfing the OP class when the class is supposed to be OP by game design. In this game and i think dresden the wizard does the heavy lifting the other type of characters add to the game by using abilites the wizard doesnt have or interacting with normal society that wizards in both games have trouble doing. But when it comes down to it the wizard is going to outshine anything you do it a given. You role play what it would be like serving and helping these guys out, you might oppose them with the help of other wizards but on your own against them you are toast. As in dresden.

I don't know how many times i've expressed this opinion.  I hold it of course because I think its right and because it is an opinion consistent with the facts of the books and the game. Dresden wizards are meant to be the focus of this game. They are meant to be OP. We aren't playing Murphy files or the butter files but Dresden files. Now dresden gets into alot of trouble and his friends bail him out but thats cause he sucks as a wizard. And even then he outshines his friends on most occasions. He's getting better but when you read about what the other wizards can do with their abilites and a bit of foresight mortals have no business messing with them. The y are feared by the other supernaturals with good reason.

I wrote to much warcraft time
 

[Taran]

Now dresden gets into alot of trouble and his friends bail him out but thats cause he sucks as a wizard.

Doesn't he say, power-wise, he's one of the strongest wizards out there?  Which means 90% of the wizards in the world are less powerful than him.

So, if he needs to get bailed out all the time, I'd imagine that less powerful wizards need to be bailed out far more often.

So, I'd have to disagree with your appraisal of the books.  He's also very powerful because he's the Winter Knight and 99.9% of wizards aren't Knights.

[dragoonbuster]

potestas, I don't know what books you've read, but they're not the same ones everyone else has.

 I think you're projecting your belief that "wizards should be better than everything else" onto the books and rpg both.

In an RPG, not everyone wants to play a wizard. But some people do. REGARDLESS of what the books may say about relative power for wizards and other mortals or supernaturals, an RPG isn't fun if one player is way more powerful than everyone else. So in the interest of not forcing players to choose "all wizard" or "no wizard", something called "Mechanical Balance" is used to solve the issue.

At least, that's my role-play. Enjoy your role-play as you see fit.

[Shaft]

Potestas, you're free to run your game the way you want. It's not wrong.  But that also means that if the majority of the board disagrees with you, they're not wrong either. I would not interpret the rules the same way that you do- I think Sanctaphrax's breakdown is spot on, but don't let that stop you from making whatever house rule you see fit.  The Dresden rules could be a great way to run a modern day Ars Magica if that is what you're looking to do. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Essentially a dresden wizard can do anything he wants by act of will. In game we limit this with dice and numbers so we can play it out but in point of fact they are mortal gods.

Wizards are always supposed to be strong. Stronger then vamps and shapeshifters, demons nothing in the game aside from PD have the same "potential".

Nope.

Harry is explictly one of the most powerful and effective wizards in the world, and he spends most of his time getting his ass kicked and talking about how scary other supernatural beings are. He specifically points out, time and time again, that he's an insect compared to someone like the Red King.

And the RPG isn't meant to be a game of wizard supremacy. There's a reason that Evil Hat's suggested PC groups usually have a mix of casters and non-casters; they're supposed to be on the same level as characters.

You can play your game however you want. But the way you portray the books and game rules is just factually wrong.

I see no difference between the two. They do the same thing reduce actual damage.They have different names is all.

Toughness doesn't just reduce stress, it also lengthens your stress track. Armour just reduces stress.

Toughness isn't armour, armour isn't a defence roll boost, and a defence roll boost isn't a block. There are lots of different things in the game that protect you from damage.

Immunity is of course also different from Toughness, since infinity is not a number and it doesn't affect the length of your stress track.

You may think its OP I do not.

You said in the first post, "I think a nice over powered way to boost the defense of wizards ". You specifically used the words "over powered". Have you changed your mind so quickly?

The Dresden rules could be a great way to run a modern day Ars Magica if that is what you're looking to do.

I don't think so, actually. I like Ars Magica quite a bit (I'm GMing an offline game of it), but it and DFRPG are very different games.

Ars Magica is one of the most rules-as-physics-y games you'll ever see. If you like GNS theory, it's "simulationist". The narrative authority that DFRPG gives to its players with Fate Points is totally unlike the way Ars Magica works.

Also, Ars Magica is a really deadly system. The grogs potestas mentions are the usual frontline fighters, and they're intended to be expendable because fighting in Ars Magica is very likely to kill you. DFRPG isn't like that at all.

And one of the central design elements in Ars Magica, the ability to trade time for power, doesn't work at all in DFRPG. The path to power in Ars Magica is to spend in-game years studying and making magical items. The path to power in DFRPG is to have adventures and accept Compels. They're not really compatible.

It's worth keeping in mind, by the way, that Ars Magica isn't as wizard-supremacy-y as it's often made out to be. Hermetic magi are incredibly powerful, but other spellcasters are a lot less impressive. And even magi have weaknesses, like the social penalties of The Gift and the fact that spending all your time on magic tends to leave you lacking life skills.

Plus there are inhuman beings that are substantially stronger than magi, and of course there's God. Who's actually omnipotent and omniscient and so on.