Fuzzy on how to run Scene or Situation Aspects

[Streamweaver]

I'm gearing up to run my first Dresden Game an I'm still a bit fuzzy on scene or situation aspects and how best to use them in a game.

It seems the systems wants to keep it in the realm of tagging to use an aspect free the first time and using Fate Points each time after that but I'm not sure I'm clear on how that's really suppose to work.

Lets take the following scene as an example:

The players Ron and Anna are entering an abandoned tenement building with bricked over windows and no lighting so the building has the PITCH BLACK scene aspect.  They suddenly realize they were followed by Frank who is standing in the doorway behind them lite from behind by the streetlights.  Frank has a SILHOUETTED temporary aspect while he stands in the doorway.

So my mind goes a bit fuzzy on how different requests would work out in this exchange and it seems like it would be too easy to drain all the characters fate points just trying to use the natural environments.

Say I want to give Ron or Anna an Alertness roll to avoid an ambush from Frank.  Seems straight forward, they tagg the SILHOUETED temp aspect and get a bonus on the defense roll.  What I don't understand is let's say they don't get ambushed in exchanges after that they'd have to spend a fate point to add to their defense for PITCH BLACK?  I don't quiet get that though and why are they spending fate points for that.  Alternatively I could say they don't have to use Fate Points and treat like a compel on Frank but what are the effects of a compel?

Fate points are straight forward but I don't see any specific draw back for compel, is a -2 shifts a good rule of thumb for specific compels like firing a gun at someone hidden in PITCH BLACK space?

Say nobody sees anybody and Anna and Ron are hiding while Frank is in the doorway.  Ron wants to try to use Alertness to make out Franks face and figure out who the figure SILHOUTETED in the doorway is.  Sounds reasonable to give Frank a compel for since Frank is only outlined but again what do I use?  -1 shift,-2?  Something else?

Say Ron and Anna just take cover, waiting for their friend to swoop in and resume them and Frank starts shooting away from the doorway.  Do they have to spend Fate Points every round to keep the bonus from the PITCH BLACK.

There are a lot of situations where it seems like we'd just be bleeding off Fate Points but maybe in play it doesn't work out like that.  Any advice or thoughts on how I might clear this up in my mind?

[sdfds68]

As far as I know all fate point expenditures on roll bonuses are a one time thing. You spend one fate point on an invoke for a +2 bonus on a single roll.

Compels are fate point generators. Somebody accepts a compel from the GM on an aspect, and gets a fate point for something bad happening for them. Players can also volunteer to compel themselves on some aspect for a fate point. What exactly happens as a result of a compel in the game is up the people playing it. It could be kinda bad, it could be really, really bad or even not very bad at all. It just shouldn't be a good thing for the character(s) affected by the compel.

In play, it's important to remember that aspects, with tags, can be introduced by the players. If a player doesn't want to spend a fate point on something, either they or another player should try and roll to get them a tag.

[Mr. Death]

I'm gearing up to run my first Dresden Game an I'm still a bit fuzzy on scene or situation aspects and how best to use them in a game.

It seems the systems wants to keep it in the realm of tagging to use an aspect free the first time and using Fate Points each time after that but I'm not sure I'm clear on how that's really suppose to work.

Lets take the following scene as an example:

The players Ron and Anna are entering an abandoned tenement building with bricked over windows and no lighting so the building has the PITCH BLACK scene aspect.  They suddenly realize they were followed by Frank who is standing in the doorway behind them lite from behind by the streetlights.  Frank has a SILHOUETTED temporary aspect while he stands in the doorway.

So my mind goes a bit fuzzy on how different requests would work out in this exchange and it seems like it would be too easy to drain all the characters fate points just trying to use the natural environments.

Say I want to give Ron or Anna an Alertness roll to avoid an ambush from Frank.  Seems straight forward, they tagg the SILHOUETED temp aspect and get a bonus on the defense roll.  What I don't understand is let's say they don't get ambushed in exchanges after that they'd have to spend a fate point to add to their defense for PITCH BLACK?  I don't quiet get that though and why are they spending fate points for that.  Alternatively I could say they don't have to use Fate Points and treat like a compel on Frank but what are the effects of a compel?

Fate points are straight forward but I don't see any specific draw back for compel, is a -2 shifts a good rule of thumb for specific compels like firing a gun at someone hidden in PITCH BLACK space?

One thing I general do is, I'll set up the aspects that will work against the PCs, and let the PCs come up with the aspects that will work in their favor.

So this scene, Frank doesn't have the "Silhouetted" temporary aspect until and unless one of the PCs rolls Alertness or makes a declaration to the effect.

The game is cooperative, and a big part of it is the players coming up with ways to turn the environment to their advantage. So in this case, Ron or Anna "spots" him, and tags that Silhouetted aspect to ruin the ambush.

From there, you run the scene as normal. The Pitch Black aspect won't affect every exchange -- it will have a mechanical affect when and if you compel it. Compels can be anything that complicates the players' efforts -- and it does not have to be per exchange. Maybe Pitch Black makes a flat penalty to attack rolls for the scene while the aspect exists.

[Sanctaphrax]

Say I want to give Ron or Anna an Alertness roll to avoid an ambush from Frank.  Seems straight forward, they tagg the SILHOUETED temp aspect and get a bonus on the defense roll.  What I don't understand is let's say they don't get ambushed in exchanges after that they'd have to spend a fate point to add to their defense for PITCH BLACK?

They don't have to do anything. They can choose not to invoke an aspect, even if it's available and appropriate.

One of the features of this system is that it doesn't have many situational modifiers. So if neither GM nor player cares to use that PITCH BLACK Aspect, that Aspect doesn't do anything mechanical.

This can be kinda weird for people who are new to Fate, but it works pretty well in play. Sometimes you don't want to bother with that kind of stuff, and thanks to the way this game works you don't have to.

Fate points are straight forward but I don't see any specific draw back for compel, is a -2 shifts a good rule of thumb for specific compels like firing a gun at someone hidden in PITCH BLACK space?

A Compel can do anything. Personally, I'd default to automatic failure in a situation like that. But a scene-long penalty might be good too.

-2 to one roll would be a pretty soft Compel. Even if the roll was very important, the player could just use the FP from the Compel to invoke something for a +2 bonus and end up where they started.

[Streamweaver]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.  I guess it's going to take some shift in my thinking.  I'm still not as clear on it overall. 

Both myself and my players are new to Fate overall and I'm the only one who has completely read the rules, so it will be helpful if I give them some prompts as to when aspects and invoking would be useful so they can ease into it.  It's hard when you're easing into it yourself though.

Maybe I'm confused over what it means to place an aspect on the scene vs a maneuver or invoking an aspect.  Reading YW105 on Scene aspects is it implying you can invoke a Scene aspect at anytime at no cost?  The scene compels seem to take the role of scene length effects (-2 shifts to use ranged weapons in the PITCH BLACK building for the whole scene).

Sorry, still getting my head around it.  I want it to work smoothly, provide some rich flavor and detail but also make sense.  Maybe I just need to run it a bit, we haven't had our first session yet.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

[Taran]

I wouldn't use a -2, I'd just use a block strength.

First:  there's no right answer.  There are so many ways to run the scene you described -  so I'll just tell you what I might do given your example:

Ron and Anna are in a PITCH BLACK building.
Frank can use it to try to get an ambush, he could use it to improve his stealth.  Or maybe I wouldn't allow an ambush at all unless he invokes PITCH BLACK.  Ambushes require some prep afterall, so unless he prepared, he'll need the darkness to get the advantage of an ambush.

Sillouetted
Anne uses Alertness to declare that Frank is sillouetted and tags it for a bonus to her roll to avoid the ambush.  Or maybe she uses it to increase an attack role against Frank.

As a player, instead of tagging or invoking PITCH BLACK for a +2, I'd invoke it for effect.  Essentially, I'd say "I want to turn Pitch Black into a block against attacks"
So now all attacks face a 4 shift block, for example.  The GM can turn that around on the players.  O.k, fine, but you also face a 4 shift block against all assessments and it works both ways.  You can't really hit Frank without difficulty.

So now the aspect is hampering both parties.

Anne can use 'silhouetted' to boost her attack roll or she can invoke it for effect to allow her to attack to be unhampered by the Block.

Any of the characters could spend a FP, invoking Pitch Black to say that an attack misses also.  This is a compel against the character who attacked.  So if Anne uses a FP to avoid Frank's attack, Frank gets to have her FP.

This is why it's like a currency.

As far as spending all your FP's, there are lots of things you can do:
Stealth Maneuver vs Alertness:  Ron sneaks in the dark room to get closer to Frank. He's now 'poised for attack'.
Anne turns on a light (by doing a maneuver as an action - maybe an investigation maneuver to find the switch)getting rid of the Pitch Black aspect and, maybe, changing it to WELL LIT.  She may tag WELL LIT to declare that Frank is "DAZZLED" by the change in illumination.

Now Ron and Anne have Dazzled and Poised for attack against Frank.  Ron can tag(for free) those aspects for a +4 to his next attack.

Also, it's the GM's job to keep the FP's flowing.  Use aspects to give FP's to the players.

Anne created WELL LIT but now the Gm can say that she too is DAZZLED and will miss on her next attack (this is a compel she can turn down).  Not very creative, but you get the idea.

Maybe, when it's pitch black, if someone tries to sneak, the GM compels them to knock over a lamp and alert the enemy. etc.... GM's should use those aspects to make the scene fun and exciting and get the FP's flowing.  Players usually place aspects so that they can tag them for bonuses or have interesting things happen.  The GM can also find clever ways to use aspects that players create to complicate things.

[Taran]

Double post

Maybe I'm confused over what it means to place an aspect on the scene vs a maneuver or invoking an aspect.  Reading YW105 on Scene aspects is it implying you can invoke a Scene aspect at anytime at no cost?  The scene compels seem to take the role of scene length effects (-2 shifts to use ranged weapons in the PITCH BLACK building for the whole scene).

In case I didn't answer it in my last post..

Maneuver to create an aspect.
Maneuvers are when your character actively does something to change the scene:

scene maneuvers- it's fairly easy to do that.  "OVERTURNED TABLE" might only require an Average +1 roll.  The difficulty of a maneuver is up to the GM and how easy it would really be to do.  Trying to put PITCH BLACK on the scene when you're in a glass room on a sunny day would be pretty hard to do.

If someone is actively trying to prevent you from overturning the table, you'd have to beat their defense.  Maybe they're using Might to prevent you from creating the aspect.

Maneuvers On another character: Tripping, distracting, flanking, tangling, etc...
This is resisted by the target.


Assessments to create aspects:
You can use an assessment to DISCOVER an aspect on a scene or character:  This could be using empathy to discover a character's aspect, alertness to discover a scene aspect (like 'hidden door'; 'Fire Detector').  Scholarship, Contacts, investigation, empathy, alertness are usually used to make assessments.  Basically, it's searching for information about a scene or person/business etc...

Declaration
It's effectively an assessment except your character doesn't do it.  It's something the player does.  It's a total metagaming tool.   You, as a player, are adding details to the scene/story.  There's a fire-hydrant on the scene.  It doesn't always create an aspect but it might be required for a maneuver.  You need to successfully declare the fire-hydrant before you do an action to put "EVERYTHING IS WET" on the scene.

I don't tend to allow adding details to NPC's...but sometimes it's fun.  You might declare that an enemy has his SHOE UNTIED.  On it's own, it does nothing, but it might help you TRIP him.(give you a +2 bonus for a TRIP maneuver)

Now that he's tripped, you could compel him to be unable to change zones or run away by using the free tag you got for successfully maneuvering.  That compel might last until he removes the TRIPPED aspect. 

Using aspects: 
Whoever discovers/creates an aspect gets to tag it for free one time.  After that, it costs a FP.  Anyone can use an aspect on the scene as long as it's not hidden but it costs a FP.

I'm not sure if I've answered any of your questions.....

[Sanctaphrax]

Maybe I'm confused over what it means to place an aspect on the scene vs a maneuver or invoking an aspect.  Reading YW105 on Scene aspects is it implying you can invoke a Scene aspect at anytime at no cost?  The scene compels seem to take the role of scene length effects (-2 shifts to use ranged weapons in the PITCH BLACK building for the whole scene).

You can invoke for free once, if and only if you rolled to create the Aspect or to gain access to it.

Any of the characters could spend a FP, invoking Pitch Black to say that an attack misses also.  This is a compel against the character who attacked.  So if Anne uses a FP to avoid Frank's attack, Frank gets to have her FP.

That isn't quite true by the book. Going by YS, Frank only gets the FP if the Aspect being invoked is on him. Fate Points spent on scene Aspects just go away.

I can see why you'd want to run it your way, though.

[Lawgiver]

@Streamweaver

Try to keep in mind the essential differences between some basic terms.

An INVOKE is when the player/character wants to use one or more of their own Aspects to gain an advantage for themselves.

A COMPEL is when the GM wants to use one or more of a character's Aspects to give them grief.

An ASSESSMENT is when the player/character is trying to determine an existing Aspect on another character/NPC/location/scene.

A MANEUVER is when the player/character acts to modify a scene/location by introducing a new and limited Aspect (tripped, dazzled, tangled, etc.) that works either in their favor or against opposition (works out basically the same, just a matter of narrative 'kick' really). If the Aspect created by a maneuver has no shifts it is 'fragile', and must be used immediately before it vanishes. If there are shifts above success, the maneuver is now 'sticky' and can be tagged by others until it is removed (usually by the character it was placed on).

In your example, above, there any # of ways for various Aspects that currently exist (on characters and the location) to be invoked and compelled as well as multiple opportunities for Assessments and Maneuvers to reveal unknown Aspects or create new ones for use.

To me, the best thing to do... until everyone has had a chance to get the feel of how game flow works... is to go slowly through each exchange and talk over what each of you want to happen in the next exchange and determine what the various invokes/compels/assessments/maneuvers are likely to be, who is going to do them, and when they're going to happen... then run through the exchange and see if any required dice rolls let it fall out that way or whether chance dictates something a little different.

The system is very free-form and allows for all kinds of creating skullduggery and mayhem. Start slow and work into more complex and faster paced action later.