Medical Treatment

[sdfds68]

After creating three variations on the original consequence system, rereading this thread, reading a lot of other threads and reading YS, I think I managed to wind up back where I started in this thread.

Allow characters with the Doctor stunt to take time off of consequences. It's simple, doesn't affect anything but consequence recovery, gives Doctor a reason to exist and can be regulated in game through roll difficulty. Come up with some time reductions, playtest 'em and adjust as necessary.

If asked I'll put up the variations I wrote, but honestly they're crap. Most of what I said in the first one boils down to 'get rid of Wizard's Constitution' and the others are for fate games with an entirely different tone and assumptions about what player characters are capable of.

[Taran]

thinking out loud:

What if we keep the time limits the same but What if consequences heal on their own - naturally.

At the end of the scene in which you got hurt, you make an endurance roll = to the consequence.**
You could do this multiple ways - I'm not sure what would be best:
      1 roll/ consequence you want to tend (but then you have to track each consequence separately - but you kind of do that already anyways...)
      1 roll with a set difficulty base on total consequences?

If you fail, you can't start the healing process and you can't roll again until the next prescribed amount of time passes:
Mild: after next scene
Moderate: after next session
etc...

If you fail again, you have to continue to wait.

I'll stop here before I continue:  This doesn't change the existing rules except to allow pure mortals to heal on their own.  If they keep failing, they'd never start healing - but how it stands in the rules, you don't heal without medical treatment anyways.  Mostly it's giving pure mortals a leg up.

You could even choose to include some kind of bad side-effect if you fail badly, like a worsening of a consequence.

If you choose to visit a doctor, you may immediately make an endurance roll and tag the aspect created by the doctor who tended you.
- Maybe give you additional bonuses based on the quality of the doctors skill roll?  +1 every 3 shifts?
- I'm not sure what the difficulty of the scholarship roll should be.  Maybe consequence minus 2?  Maybe it depends on the consequence?

You can get a bonus to the endurance roll based on how long you spend at the hospital (start at one scene and get a +1 for the length of time you spend on the time chart.)  So, with enough time at a hospital or being tended, you will start the healing process automatically.

Recovery Powers:
Recovery gives you a bonus to your endurance roll based on the level you take.  So, you're more likely to start healing automatically.
Maybe 2, 4, 6?
Once you start recovering, you also recover faster - as written in the power.
Also, since recovering reduces the time consequences heal, you also get to roll endurance more often.

Visiting a hospital will speed up or guarantee the healing process because you can stack your recovery bonus with the bonus granted from mundane medical treatment.  It also gives you a second chance to roll if you fail.

Wizards constitution should probably give some kind of bonus to start healing+2?  No risk of having wounds get worse, if that's something you choose to include?


**A GM may adjudicate that certain consequences don't require a roll and start healing on their own.

Example: Bob the Pure mortal and Tom the Supernatural Healer.  Both with an endurance of +2

At the end of a scene, they both have a severe consequence.

They both roll against a difficulty of 6.
Bob has a total of +2, so must roll a +4 on the dice
Tom has a total of +6.

- Assuming they both succeed, Tom heals his severe at the beginning of the next session, while bob heals his at the end of the scenario.
- Assuming they both fail, Tom gets to roll another time after the next session.  If he succeeds, he heals the severe at the end of the session, as normal.  Bob doesn't get to try another roll until the end of the scenario.  If Tom had mythic recovery, he could re-roll every scene and heal that severe by the end of the current scene in which he succeeded.
- Of course, it's likely, Tom will succeed immediately and Bob will fail

After Bob fails, he decides he doesn't want to wait until the end of the scenario or a month in game time.  He chooses to Tom spend a scene at the hospital, or has a fellow PC tend him. he can roll 2(endurance)+2(for the tag).  If he doesn't llike his odds, he can spend the afternoon getting treated, increasing his odds by +4.

If Tom fails and decides he doesn't want to have a minimum of 2 full sessions with a severe(instead of 1 session), he joins Bob and gets to re-roll, adding the +2 tag to his +6.

[Remi]

Harry has(had) Wizard's Constitution.  He doesn't need 'an excuse to start the healing process' - he never actually needs to visit a hospital - and, yet, Butters patches him up.  Obviously because it has some kind of effect.  Is it purely narrative?  Is it just to break up the pace of the novel?  Give him a chance to recover his stress track?  Catch his breath?  It could be but I don't like that.  If I was playing Butters as a character,  I would want all those procedures to actually help Harry's character otherwise I've wasted a stunt.

You're trying to reduce the novels to numerical computations, whereas I think the game designers' intent is to make our games play like the novels.

There is no game mechanical reason for Butters to do what he does, because the novel is not a game. Butters patches up Harry because Harry needs to relate to regular people. We need to see that Harry is human. This becomes more obvious later in the series when Harry begins to seriously fear that he's losing his humanity to the powers that threaten to take over his soul.

The medical treatment is also about character development, and Butters can give Harry some insight into wizardly biology that Harry can't get by himself. The treatment defines the relationship between Harry and Butters, draws Butters into the web of complexity that's Harry's life.

The novels are about these people, not the mechanics of the battles. In later novels Butters' investment in Harry becomes a pivotal element in his life and the others around him. If Harry never visited Butters for treatment a major plot point would never happen, because Butters would be completely useless to Harry. Butters, being mundane, is also responsible for keeping Harry grounded in the mortal world and not getting completely lost in the faerie world.

When we play these games it is tempting to reduce human beings to mere stats and power lists. But novels that read like the transcription of a computer game are not interesting. I find the most successful play sessions are those that unfold without us ever having to roll dice or consult the rule book -- when the action unfolds organically out of the tensions between characters and the story that the GM has created for them to interact with.

The Fate system is set up to give the players a lot of control over the direction of the scenario. Players can spend fate points and make declarations to make things go the way they want to. The mechanics can be manipulated so that players themselves can usually decide when they're going to succeed or fail at something.

If making your players sit around waiting to heal is a waste of time in your game -- that is, your characters have no need to interact with a doctor character like Butters -- then just toss the rule.

You use the phrase "narrative reasons" like that's a bad thing. In my mind, the narrative -- the story -- is the only thing. The stats and the dice rolling are there to spice things up, add some randomness and take some of the arbitrariness that can develop if GMs can just dictate every outcome.

[Sanctaphrax]

Remi, save it. You're not contributing anything to the thread.

If you want to talk about your gaming philosophy and how other people should adopt it, you can start a new thread for that. But you aren't actually addressing what Taran is saying, and you're wasting your time here.

This isn't a moderator order. I'm not going to ban you if you ignore me. But you really should listen.

thinking out loud:

What if we keep the time limits the same but What if consequences heal on their own - naturally.

...

Eh. I don't really see the point of all that rolling. It doesn't seem to make medical treatment more interesting or meaningful, and I don't think it opens up much design space for magical healing.

If asked I'll put up the variations I wrote, but honestly they're crap. Most of what I said in the first one boils down to 'get rid of Wizard's Constitution' and the others are for fate games with an entirely different tone and assumptions about what player characters are capable of.

Don't put up the variants if they're terrible, but I'm curious; what other games are the other variants for?

[Taran]

Eh. I don't really see the point of all that rolling. It doesn't seem to make medical treatment more interesting or meaningful, and I don't think it opens up much design space for magical healing.

Yeah, I agree, and there's other things I don't like about it but I think there's a seed there.  What I see in that method is that healing just happens.  Recovery and medical treatment speed it up.  Medical treatment even helps Recovery along.

For magical healing, scholarship skill replacement would work.  Boosting complexity to compensate for 'time spent at the hospital' to boost the healing roll could allow it to happen quicker.

It doesn't work well with Wizard's constitution, though.  Some wounds should be so difficult to heal naturally that it's near impossible except with Recovery/wizards con.  But the way I had the numbers, someone with high endurance might always start healing but someone with Wizards con and low endurance might not.

You're trying to reduce the novels to numerical computations, whereas I think the game designers' intent is to make our games play like the novels.

No, that's not what I'm doing at all.  But since it's a game based on the book, some things get turned into mechanics: there are stat blocks for all the characters because some things in the novels need to be transferred over. 

The doctoring of Harry's physical wounds is just a symbolic gesture to a different kind of healing that's taking place.  That's what happens in the novel.  I get all that.

GMing that scene may be useful for all kinds of things - giving people a chance to rest, allowing characters to Role Play, maybe it's a good point for a milestone, maybe it gives a justification for a skill swap or an increase in a skill - maybe Butters(the character) increases his empathy.

But, in the game, If I'm playing Butters (the character), using the Doctor stunt on Harry is pointless. I've taken the stunt purely to fill the theme of the character.  I'd be better off having 'doctor' as an aspect.

Really,  Butters is just giving Dresden a narrative justification to heal a mental consequence.  maybe one he took casting.  Butters doesn't have 'psychologist' on his character sheet, and he shouldn't need it - or maybe he should.  I suppose it depends on whether or not the GM feels the consequence needs proper justification. 

I don't think narrative is a bad thing.  I'm getting insulted that people think I think that - have you seen me play?  It just doesn't happen to be purpose of this thread. 

Consider this a cerebral exercise.  You don't have to use anything that gets developed and you don't have to participate.

[Theogony_IX]

It doesn't work well with Wizard's constitution, though.  Some wounds should be so difficult to heal naturally that it's near impossible except with Recovery/wizards con.  But the way I had the numbers, someone with high endurance might always start healing but someone with Wizards con and low endurance might not.

There are also wounds that even if healed on there own, heal better with a doctor.  Broken bones are a prime example.  You can break a bone and let it heal on its own, but it might heal crooked.  Moderate flesh wounds that could use stitches can heal on their own, but there is also a chance they get infected and worsen instead.

I think your best bet is to find a benefit from medical treatment rather than change the way a wound heals.  I think it would only create complicated things to keep track of that could easily be lost track of.

Using your last idea though, and something that Sancta mentioned earlier:  You could change the way consequence aspects function.  The first tag is a free +2, reroll, or effect just like normal.  However, until a wound is tended, anyone who knows about the consequence and aspect can tag it against you for a +1, reroll with one locked down, or a Discipline opposed effect.

[Taran]

Well, using an assessment action, you could assess the fact that someone has a consequence.  That would give you a free tag.  It's the same as introducing any aspect that is on the scene.

In that sense, Consequences can be invoked in new scenes without needing FP's.  It requires an action and an appropriate roll: alertness, scholarship, empathy all seem like appropriate skills.  It's not really different from introducing any other aspect through a maneuver or assessment, so I don't know if it would play any part in making up rules.  If the person is actively trying to conceal the wound, it might be opposed.  I'd say the harsher the wound, the more difficult it would be to hide and, therefore, easier to assess.

That said, it's much more beneficial to do a maneuver and tag it for a +2 than it is to assess a tended consequence and only get a +1.  So, I'm not sure how often anyone would do that, unless you make that assessment incredibly easy.  I've rarely seen anyone assess a consequence on an NPC.  Maybe never. 

On the other hand, it may be way easier to assess a wound than, say, trip or flank etc...

I think your best bet is to find a benefit from medical treatment rather than change the way a wound heals.

Well, that's what I was trying to do with the last method I presented.  The benefit was allowing the healing process to start earlier and to give people a second chance to start it.  Which is pretty much how it already works except I also made it work in conjunction with a recovery power and tied it to a roll.  I'm not defending it...just explaining what I was trying to do.

You can break a bone and let it heal on its own, but it might heal crooked.  Moderate flesh wounds that could use stitches can heal on their own, but there is also a chance they get infected and worsen instead.

You might be able to do that with a compel...but I do like the idea of consequences worsening.  Recovery might make it even harder...bones mending super fast before they have a chance to be set.  You could always narrate it that the bones re-set themselves magically if you have a recovery power.

I'm not sure there's a smooth way to do it.  A compel could have you re-name the injury into something worse, or have the healing process start over if you don't give it a chance to rest - or if you're slogging through a sewer with an open cut cause some kind of complication.  I mean, that's kind of what consequences are supposed to do.

Renaming a consequence when you get it mended would alleviate some of the narrative power on a consequence, so I like that.  It's hard to say your wound gets infected if it's been wrapped and sterilized, blah, blah, blah...  but even then, a compel is a compel:  "your bandage comes undone in the sewer and now its infected, introduction of complication x,y,z."   Renaming the consequence can take some of the narrative justification away from your enemy.  I do like reducing the tag to a +1, though since that reinforces it mechanically.  But, as Sanctaphrax says, tags don't happen much after the scene in which the consequence is created, so it'll rarely come up.  Which brings me back to my first point in the post.

What we agree on so far:

Medical treatment renames a consequence.

[Theogony_IX]

Well, using an assessment action, you could assess the fact that someone has a consequence.  That would give you a free tag.  It's the same as introducing any aspect that is on the scene.

In that sense, Consequences can be invoked in new scenes without needing FP's.  It requires an action and an appropriate roll: alertness, scholarship, empathy all seem like appropriate skills.  It's not really different from introducing any other aspect through a maneuver or assessment, so I don't know if it would play any part in making up rules.  If the person is actively trying to conceal the wound, it might be opposed.  I'd say the harsher the wound, the more difficult it would be to hide and, therefore, easier to assess.

That said, it's much more beneficial to do a maneuver and tag it for a +2 than it is to assess a tended consequence and only get a +1.  So, I'm not sure how often anyone would do that, unless you make that assessment incredibly easy.  I've rarely seen anyone assess a consequence on an NPC.  Maybe never. 

On the other hand, it may be way easier to assess a wound than, say, trip or flank etc...

Ah, I forgot a part of my thought.  It would be a free tag for the reduced bonus once per scene until the wound is tended.

Additionally, an assessment would only be necessary if you don't know the wound is there.  If you caused the wound, then you know it's there.  You can tag it for the reduced bonus once per scene for free until its tended.  If you were there and in a reasonable position to notice a person becoming wounded, then you know about it and won't need to make an assessment.  Someone could even spend a fatepoint or make a Contacts declaration to have been told about the wound.  The benefit to this over placing any other aspect is that it's free each scene rather only once and done requiring fate points after.

EDIT:  If an opponent is applying enough pressure, this could add up to quite a big bonus from an injury.  It makes having a character with the doctor stunt rather valuable.

[Taran]

Ah, I forgot a part of my thought.  It would be a free tag for the reduced bonus once per scene until the wound is tended.

For anyone?  That would certainly make medical treatment useful.  How would it work with recovery?

Additionally, an assessment would only be necessary if you don't know the wound is there.  If you caused the wound, then you know it's there.  You can tag it for the reduced bonus once per scene for free until its tended.  If you were there and in a reasonable position to notice a person becoming wounded, then you know about it and won't need to make an assessment.  Someone could even spend a fatepoint or make a Contacts declaration to have been told about the wound.  The benefit to this over placing any other aspect is that it's free each scene rather only once and done requiring fate points after.

Whoever creates/discovers the aspect can tag it - they can choose to pass the tag to someone else, but don't have to.  Also, you can make assessments with a contacts roll - you don't need to spend a FP because you used contacts to discover it.  But you only get the tag once, unless you're talking about the house-rule.

You need to make an assessment or declaration for any tag - although, it might be so easy that it doesn't require a roll.  To assess/declare "shadowy corners" requires a roll - whether or not it's already on the scene and fairly obvious.  I'm not sure I'd allow people to get free tags without rolling, spending an action or a fp.  buuuuut....that said, see below:

when I started playing the game, I assumed that, if I created an aspect, I could tag it once/scene as long as it existed.  I got this from the description of Addictive Saliva, so I assumed that's how the rules for long-term aspects worked across the board.

I dropped that interpretation because no-one else seemed to use it...not really because anyone convinced me otherwise.

EDIT:  If an opponent is applying enough pressure, this could add up to quite a big bonus from an injury.  It makes having a character with the doctor stunt rather valuable.

So, if you go by the free tag/scene interpretation, it does make it more valuable.  But who gets the tag?  Anyone?  the person who created it?

[Theogony_IX]

Yeah, these would be house rules for consequence-specific aspects.  Other aspects would work as they normally do.

Only someone who could reasonably know about the consequence would get the per scene free tag.  Anyone else would need to make a declaration to be told about it, or roll an assessment to discover it.

NPC 1 inflicts the consequence.  He gets a full free tag until the end of the scene.  Every scene after he gets one reduced bonus free tag until the wound is tended.
NPC 2 was standing right next to NPC 1 when the consequence was inflicted.  She probably shouldn't get a reduced bonus free tag that scene, but for every scene after that she would until the wound is tended.
NPC 3 was in a different zone and not paying attention when the consequence was inflicted.  He would need to make an assessment or declaration.  The difficulty would be very easy since he's friends with NPC 1 and NPC 2.
NPC 4 was out getting lunch and is not associated with the other NPCs.  She would need to make an assessment as if it were any other aspect to get any tags at all, and the first would likely be a full bonus tag.


Just kinda thinking as we go here.


EDIT:  If it's based solely on starting the healing process, it would seem to give an inadvertent benefit to recovery powers since they start the healing process automatically.  However, if it's specific to tending wounds and not related to beginning the healing process this benefit would be avoided.  This would make getting a wound tended important for those with recovery powers too, but not as important since they heal fast anyway.

[Taran]

I think anyone who creates a consequence should get a free tag every scene anyways.

- It's already a rule for addictive saliva
- It makes sense for White Court Thralls who have Lasting Emotion:  they create a mental consequence related to lust(or whatever) and then they tag it in new scenes to compel victims to come back for more.  Since they don't have the FP's to spend, free tags make the most sense and allows WCV's to have access to a steady supply of food.  The books reinforce this kind of mental control over their victims.
- We're looking to revamp consequences anyways, so it seems reasonable.
- medical treatment should help fight addiction anyways.

[sdfds68]

Don't put up the variants if they're terrible, but I'm curious; what other games are the other variants for?

The second one would better with Atomic Robo or other fate core stuff, since it simplifies healing and works best with a tightly bound system of skills and stunts. DFRPG would probably work poorly with it because of detailed variation in both stunts and powers, and the level of flexibility those refresh costers give in character building in comparison to what I've seen in the other fate core rule books.

The third could, with some work, be worked into the gadget and stunt system of Spirit of the Century. I'd need to do some rewriting, but it'd be fine with SOTCs easygoing setting and stress tracks.

[Remi]

There are also wounds that even if healed on there own, heal better with a doctor.  Broken bones are a prime example.  You can break a bone and let it heal on its own, but it might heal crooked.  Moderate flesh wounds that could use stitches can heal on their own, but there is also a chance they get infected and worsen instead.

This suggests a different approach to explaining why the Doctor stunt is useful. The rules say that medical treatment is needed to start the healing process for consequences, but stops there.

In real life, wounds represented by severe consequences will eventually cripple or kill you if left untreated. A broken bone that isn't set properly will leave you in agonizing pain and can potentially splinter further. If it breaks the skin you can develop sepsis. Even something as simple as a sprained ankle can cause more serious injury if an unbound ankle gives way at an inopportune time and you wind up tearing your ACL as well.

So, instead of looking at what extra benefit going to the doctor provides, you might consider what harm not going to the doctor will cause: consequences could go up a level without proper treatment (moderate to severe and severe to extreme) if you continue to stress yourself.

[Theogony_IX]

So, instead of looking at what extra benefit going to the doctor provides, you might consider what harm not going to the doctor will cause: consequences could go up a level without proper treatment (moderate to severe and severe to extreme) if you continue to stress yourself.

That's an interesting take on it.  Just running with that idea a bit here:

I know DFRPG doesn't really like to inflict penalties, but you might give a -1 penalty to all rolls if a moderate or severe injury isn't tended by a doctor by the second scene following the injury.  Then you could up that by 1 for every 2 scenes after that until the injury heals.

Having this penalty apply to injuries whether you've begun the healing process or not is how the doctor stunt/mundane medicine shines.  The difference is that without Wizard's Consitution or a Recovery Power the wound could remain forever and the penalties eventually prevent you from doing anything.

[Sanctaphrax]

Okay, so how about...

All consequences heal on their own.

If a consequence hasn't been attended to, it can be tagged once per scene for free.

Tending to a consequence requires a stunt-aided skill roll, Thaumaturgy with a stunt, or an actual healing Power. The GM sets the difficulty based on the available medical equipment, the nature of the consequence, the available time, and their own whims.

If the roll succeeds, rename the consequence slightly and it can't be tagged every scene anymore. If the roll succeeds strongly and there's magic involved, rename the consequence completely and most invokes and Compels become inappropriate.

Going to the hospital reliably gets you a successful roll, though it can take a while. If the GM cares to roll for the hospital, their policy is to take as much extra time as they need to.

Consequences sometimes worsen as the result of a Compel. Some people have Recovery and a HEALS WRONG Aspect that gives them stuff like fused bones.

Inhuman Recovery automatically tends to moderate and mild consequences. Supernatural Recovery automatically tends to non-extreme consequences. Mythic Recovery automatically tends to all consequences.

Wizard's Constitution doesn't affect healing, just ageing.

Actual healing Powers can remove consequences outright, but a limited number of times per session. So it's really a lot like buying extra consequences with stunts, except not for yourself.

I think there's potential there.

PS: If we're meddling with Recovery, we might want to move some power from the Inhuman level to the Mythic level. Because Recovery is really quite front-loaded. Not sure what the best way to do it is, though.