Author Topic: Whats to stop the wizard!  (Read 3986 times)

Offline Exkramental

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Whats to stop the wizard!
« on: March 30, 2015, 11:24:14 PM »
in the group, making a 100 shift ward in his base that shoots lazers and plays disco music, he can set it up so he cant fail the rolls after all.  i dont have anyone that wants to do it, but it's really game breaking, would you say, well that is gong to cost refresh mr. wizard. Ritual stuff is game-breaking, but whats to stop a player from going all out(roleplay aside) and making a stronghold like Archangel, in reality he could make a Deathstar from ectoplasm and have it shoot deathrays


Offline Theogony_IX

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1304
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2015, 12:11:21 AM »
The simple answer is time.  Creating something like that will require vast amounts of preparation and vast amounts of time drawing in power.  Nothing is to stop a wizard from doing so other than maybe the need to do anything else including the essentials, like eat and excrete.  Additionally, with each sunrise, a spell's effects degrade.  A lot of the work a wizard spent all day doing is going to degrade and require another day to maintain.  It makes these very large spell effects rather impractical if not downright improbable.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 12:56:36 AM »
There have been quite a few threads about this very issue.  The usual thing is:  It doesn't really matter unless someone is going to try to attack his house, so it won't really matter 99.99% of the time.

Besides, playing disco takes up, like, 98 shifts.   I mean, that's a lot of mental damage.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 01:43:22 AM »
In theory, building complexity isn't easy. But making that the case often requires careful GMing or a bit of house-ruling.

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 02:03:08 AM »
I'm with Taran, it doesn't really matter. I usually have one safe space in the game anyway, but all the stuff is happening outside of it. If the players want to turtle up, that's fine, but the bad guys are going to do their thing without any resistance. And if the bad guys need something from the players, I will compel them so their security doesn't count. Best case: an epic fight to the sound of "Staying Alive" jammin' from the failing ward.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline Exkramental

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 12:43:30 PM »
 i like it.  but how would you in-game compel the Jamming? like how would you "sell" it to the players

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 12:56:46 PM »
i like it.  but how would you in-game compel the Jamming? like how would you "sell" it to the players

First:  Tasty, Tasty Fate Points!

"Nothing happens because you're safely hidden in your fortress.  (which is boring)

or...you can accept this fp to say that you accidently invited in an enemy and that there's a ritual going on outside your house which is slowly degrading your fortifications.  You need to fend off attackers, and/or stop the ritual before they overrun the place!"

Most players will take a FP to do some fun combat than have an uneventful night.  Protecting the house become the adventure.  99% of the time you never have to worry about your house but this one time, it becomes the adventure. 

Also, I think entering a house through a Way might bypass a threshold (and therefore Wards).  But this is a highly debated topic(on these forums, anyways).  Remember that on the Nevernever side of Harry's apartment, he had someone looking out for him specifically for that reason.  You can skip that debate by using a compel - as long as your players are o.k with it.  The fun thing is they can then have a whole separate adventure to fortify the Nevernever side.

Second:  It's Jammin', not Jamming.  And it won't really work because that's reggae and not Disco.  (sorry, I couldn't help myself)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 12:59:23 PM by Taran »

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 01:04:56 PM »
Double post:

Just for reference, this is what I do with a Wizard Players house:  I let them start with a ward that is X2 their Lore.  (so base Lore + assumed declarations)  This isn't huge when you start adding duration, ward flames, spell triggers, passwords etc...

After that, they have to increase the Wards in game time.  That includes skipping scenes, doing adventures for specific components etc...some they can do with declarations but I don't really allow too many declarations in a given scenario.  So, over time, they can improve their Wards.

And, maybe, their Wizard is really, really old.  Why shouldn't they have a more powerful ward?  Well, if they're really, really old they probably have an aspect reflecting that.  Let them spend fp's invoking those aspects to boost the power of a ward.

And if they don't put lots n' lots of shifts into duration, they'll be constantly having to re-cast the ward which takes time and, it may happen that they get interrupted trying to do so (see the above scenario).

Edit:  also, 100shifts = lots and lots of declarations.  At a certain point it becomes unrealistic to make 40 declarations.

Where the hell did they get a unicorn horn?  I'd straight out tell them they'd have to go adventure for that.  Find a unicorn and kill it.  If they have the kind of personality to kill a unicorn, good for them - but there will be fall-out for that.  They just killed the defender of some mystical Nevernever forest...They better have a good ward for the backlash when the denizens of that forest come seeking vengeance.  (complications!)

Quote from: sanctaphrax
In theory, building complexity isn't easy. But making that the case often requires careful GMing or a bit of house-ruling.
 

To echo Sanctaphrax, many GM's have scaling difficulties when doing declarations.  After using Lore once or twice, using the same skill again is a higher difficulty.  This is house-ruling but doing any ritual has to have a story and the story gets a bit unbelievable at a certain point when you start getting to ridiculous shifts of complexity.

Here's a sample ward with an actual story.  It's not just a series of declarations.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 01:17:19 PM by Taran »

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 02:41:01 PM »
GM: You are sitting comfortably at your home when you suddenly hear a loud bang from outside. Upon inspection you realize it's a zombie that smashed into the ward.

Player1: Oh yeah, 100 shift ward. Nothing gets through that.

GM: Another bang from the ward. And another. And another. As you look out again, you realize that there's a whole army of zombies, and if they keep smashing themselves against the ward they will eventually wear it down. You better do something before that happens.

***

The only numbers that really matter are the differences. If you have a skill of 2 and I have a skill of 1, it would be the same as if I you had a skill of 6 and I had a skill of 5. If you have a ward of 100 shifts, I'll throw 101 zombies with teamwork bonuses at you and we'll call it a day. If you've got a 5 shift ward, I'll throw 6 zombies at you for the same result. That's another reason why huge numbers don't really bother me as a GM. There's always a bigger fish.

In a case like this, the ward can be used to great effect in leveling the playing field. The player has a powerful ward, the necromancer has an army of zombies. They cancel each other out so the players only have to fight the necromancer. They get vindicated for having their powerful ward (otherwise they would have been crushed by the army of zombies), and you get to have a balanced fight without having to account for the ward.

***

Or you can just lure them out. Of course it's nice and comfortable behind your ward. Unfortunately, you are perpetually broke and when Karin Murphy calls with a job you pretty much have no other option if you don't want to put wards on a cardboard box next month.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 09:16:51 PM »
I wouldn't focus too much on the specific example of a 100-shift ward. Maybe a ward isn't too disruptive even with that many shifts, but other magical effects could be earth-shaking.

I personally use the scaling difficulty method that Taran mentioned. Other changes I've considered include modifying the difficulties of control rolls based on the spell's complexity compared to your base complexity, not letting Recovery affect consequences taken to build complexity, and reducing the effectiveness of mass consequence-taking/human sacrifices.

Offline LeviathanZero

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 10:40:14 AM »
Also, don't forget that more power = bigger, more obvious effect, which attracts attention both magical and mundane. Something of that power level is going to have side effects, unintended consequences and generally be a massive freaking beacon.
The better something's protected the more random people are going to wonder exactly *what* you need a ward that strong to hide...

Also
GM: There's a knock on your front door, it's a police officer.
PC: I open the door "Can I help you officer?"
GM: "Yes, we've had witnesses report that a street kid tried to take a crowbar to your window last night, and quote 'Was suddenly obliterated by a flash of fire'. You wouldn't know anything about that would you?"
PC: ....... crap......
GM: Yeah, crap. Congratulations Lawbreaker.

Offline dragoonbuster

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 498
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 07:03:15 AM »
Also, don't forget that more power = bigger, more obvious effect, which attracts attention both magical and mundane. Something of that power level is going to have side effects, unintended consequences and generally be a massive freaking beacon.
The better something's protected the more random people are going to wonder exactly *what* you need a ward that strong to hide...

Yes, but....

Also
GM: There's a knock on your front door, it's a police officer.
PC: I open the door "Can I help you officer?"
GM: "Yes, we've had witnesses report that a street kid tried to take a crowbar to your window last night, and quote 'Was suddenly obliterated by a flash of fire'. You wouldn't know anything about that would you?"
PC: ....... crap......
GM: Yeah, crap. Congratulations Lawbreaker.

If my GM pulled something like this without offering a compel to that effect, I would not be a happy camper in the slightest. I probably wouldn't play at a table if this was how they ran their game. That may fly in other systems, but Compels and the Fate Point system in general exist for this very purpose.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 07:05:21 AM by dragoonbuster »
I'm a blacksmith! Here's some of what I do: https://www.etsy.com/shop/SoCalForge

Offline blackstaff67

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 12:40:42 PM »
I would say, "Hold on there.  Ward does NOT = Landmine, RAW, Ms. GM, ma'am."  Ward simply resists the attack with an equal force applied to it.  Kid with crowbar simpy gets a like amount of force directed back at him.  A simple bruising, nothing more.
My Purity score: 37.2.  Sad.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Whats to stop the wizard!
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 12:47:10 PM »
If my GM pulled something like this without offering a compel to that effect, I would not be a happy camper in the slightest. I probably wouldn't play at a table if this was how they ran their game. That may fly in other systems, but Compels and the Fate Point system in general exist for this very purpose.

Depends on your table and what the group has decided about the expectations around Lawbreaking.  Losing a refresh for a compel isn't really a good trade, no matter what.  Although, yeah, they should probably get offered a compel even if that was the expectation of the group.

Having the cops rummage through your house and have you under scrutiny is a great compel.  Having the wardens follow suit afterwards is another one!

I think LZ's point is Wards can be supremely dangerous - especially big ones.  They even warn about the dangers in YS.

I would say, "Hold on there.  Ward does NOT = Landmine, RAW, Ms. GM, ma'am."  Ward simply resists the attack with an equal force applied to it.  Kid with crowbar simpy gets a like amount of force directed back at him.  A simple bruising, nothing more.

This is true but what are you doing with 100 shifts?  Is there really no landmine?  I'd find that a bit weird.  As a GM, I'd probably know if the player had set up a landmine.  But it's a hypothetical situation, so who knows.  I think LZ was just using that as an example.

But, to get to Dragoonbuster's point, that's why the compel is important.  Maybe the kid was using the crow-bar on the second floor ledge.  The force that hit him knocked him off the roof and he broke his neck.  Arguably not Lawbreaker, but enough to create complications.