Breath Weapon questions

[Tempestaire]

Can Strength enhancements add to the damage caused by the Breath Weapon power?
Can Breath Weapon count as a weapon when it come to defense?

[ways and means]

Old Question, basically the answer is ask your gm what he feels comfortable with. Its not a particularly powerful power (2 refresh for a hidden pistol) without allowing it a little extra utility though.

[Tempestaire]

Old Question, basically the answer is ask your gm what he feels comfortable with. Its not a particularly powerful power (2 refresh for a hidden pistol) without allowing it a little extra utility though.

OK, thanks.

[Lawgiver]

No one in my group has yet to take a breath weapon and I haven't used one against them so it's an academic exercise for me at this point.

First, I would tend to say no adding to damage unless it's specifically bought with that function (perhaps even cost and extra refresh to get it like that). It's an area-effect like the old time Fireball, not point-of-impact damage like a hammer. The reasoning comes from some older RPGs that stipulate that your might thews have little to do with how much your arrow does if you shoot a bow. You might be able to pick up a bigger bow (higher throw weight), but once the arrow is released character muscle no longer has anything to do with it. Breath weapons are similar, once the substance of the breath exits the breather it's no longer really tied to their muscle mass. Buying that feature as part of the ability would seem to keep them connected.

For the second part, is the particular Breath Weapon classified/used as a Fist, Weapon, or Guns attack. Use the defense hierarchy included with those skills to determine precedence. If it counts as Guns, can Guns defend well against Weapon attacks and under what circumstances... etc.?

Just my 2c

[wyvern]

I would always allow strength powers to boost breath weapon damage, always.  (Though I'd consider allowing a cheaper upgrade that only boosted breath weapon damage if it didn't make sense for the character to also be super-strong.  But that wouldn't stack with benefits from super strength.)
I would not allow breath weapon to make a character count as armed for purposes of defense, though gaining that status would be within the scope of a mortal stunt.
I would also, given appropriate aspects, allow a breath weapon power to operate off of fists or guns skill without needing extra refresh to be spent.

Mostly the reasoning is that breath weapon is meant as a flexible power for any sort of innate ranged attack, from actual draconic fire breath, to a master conjurer's ability to call up a handful of ectoplasmic throwing knives whenever she needs some.  Strength powers obviously should benefit the latter application.  And it's my opinion that a thematic change (conjured knives to blast of flame) shouldn't have the level of game-mechanical impact that losing access to strength boost would represent.

Of course, the other part of my reasoning is simply that breath weapon is a fairly weak power, generally not worth the two refresh.  For the same price you could get channeling, which allows fewer attacks but is much stronger & has an actual upgrade path.  Or you could get inhuman strength and throw pebbles at people for the same damage output; sure, that won't work if you're in a clean white room with nothing on you, but the breath weapon won't work if you're in a circle, and either way you're probably getting a fate point for your troubles.

Also, Lawgiver: Breath weapon is explicitly not an AoE!  It's a single target attack or maneuver.  Allowing it to be AoE would be a major upgrade to the power as written.

[Taran]

Also, Lawgiver: Breath weapon is explicitly not an AoE!  It's a single target attack or maneuver.  Allowing it to be AoE would be a major upgrade to the power as written.

This is true, although, I might allow it to do spray attacks, depending on the situation or what the 'weapon' is.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm with wyvern here. Breath Weapon is pretty terrible; there's no reason to make it even more terrible for people who choose the "wrong" character concept.

Of course, if I was GMing I'd just use Ranged Natural Weaponry. Which is slightly stronger and much clearer...

The reasoning comes from some older RPGs that stipulate that your might thews have little to do with how much your arrow does if you shoot a bow. You might be able to pick up a bigger bow (higher throw weight), but once the arrow is released character muscle no longer has anything to do with it.

I don't think that makes very much sense. Archery is affected quite strongly by strength.

For the second part, is the particular Breath Weapon classified/used as a Fist, Weapon, or Guns attack.

Breath Weapon in always a Weapons attack.

[Lawgiver]

I don't think that makes very much sense. Archery is affected quite strongly by strength.

Let's take old-style D&D.

Two characters are using the same type bow. One has "average" strength, the other is high enough to get a damage bonus (specifics don't matter). The strength (poundage or throw weight) of the bow determines the impact strength of the arrow, not the muscle drawing it. One character isn't drawing the bow any further than the other (and even then there's a 'break' point beyond which more draw length =/= more oomph. The stronger character may have the option to pick up a 'stronger' bow (more poundage) so it hits harder, might even throw a bigger arrow that does, say 1d6 instead of 1d4, but other than the power of the bow, his muscles have no impact on the damage done when the arrow reaches its target.

As bows, here, operate under Guns or ranged attacks it's not that much different. The physical body doesn't add anything to the attack. Thrown weapons are a bit different, in that one is using one's body in the throw, like swinging a punch. If that's how breath weapon is being considered ( thrown dagger instead of an arrow), then fine, add the Str bonus in. Otherwise, I don't see how it works (unless paid for in some way, like extra refresh to ensure that that attribute or "aspect" to the ability.
/shrug

To each their own

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't see what D&D has to do with anything here...

If everyone's using an appropriately-heavy bow, stronger people will shoot farther and harder. So Strength should apply to bow damage. And if you use the Strength-adds-to-thrown-range houserule, that should probably apply to bows too.

[Tempestaire]

I think a classical breath weapon would probably be closer to a garden hose's stream of water than to a gun's blast.
Also, D&D isn't exactly the game with the best or more realistic mechanics.

[zakmo86]

I agree with Law (or whoever said strength doesn't always matter with a bow). If you have an average bow that a child can shoot, a bodybuilder isn't going to be able to shoot it "harder." It's the same concept as a gun: a stronger person can't shoot it any harder than a weak person. That's just not the way those things work.

It depends on the type of bow. If you're using a hunting bow that requires more strength to shoot, then the strength of the person matters and the arrow would do more damage ONLY because the bow can store more potential energy before being fired. Using guns again: a stronger person can more easily shoot a heavy gun. But the "machine" is doing the actual propelling forward.

For strength affecting breath weapon, I'd say it depends on the type of weapon being generated and the table at large. If you're producing bone shards, knives, rocks, or something that you throw, strength would likely matter. If you're holding out your hand to project lightning or fire or steam or light, then strength likely doesn't matter at all.

[Taran]

I don't think people should be punished for creativity.  It 'encourages' a certain type of breath weapon that stacks with strength, since 'throwing' a weapon will be more optimal than 'breathing' fire, for instance.

If you're going to let Strength powers stack with breath weapon, then you should allow it across the board.

Using the bow analogy, someone with breath weapons and strength powers is going to have a weapon that best suits their abilities and, therefore, be more powerful.  So someone with a str. power is going to have a bow that will make use of their strength - why wouldn't they?  it's an innate power.

If you're going to restrict it, then you should restrict it across the board and not favour one type of character fluff over another.

[zakmo86]

I don't think people should be punished for creativity.  It 'encourages' a certain type of breath weapon that stacks with strength, since 'throwing' a weapon will be more optimal than 'breathing' fire, for instance.

If you're going to let Strength powers stack with breath weapon, then you should allow it across the board.

Using the bow analogy, someone with breath weapons and strength powers is going to have a weapon that best suits their abilities and, therefore, be more powerful.  So someone with a str. power is going to have a bow that will make use of their strength - why wouldn't they?  it's an innate power.

If you're going to restrict it, then you should restrict it across the board and not favour one type of character fluff over another.

I agree with you. In fact, I think people should be rewarded for creativity. If someone said in my game, "Hey. I want to be able to absorb sand and throw glass shards from  my palms. Can I take Breath Weapon to do that." I'd say, "Hell's yeah you can." If that player said, "It's a mental thing where he uses the pressure of his willpower and an ancient Middle Eastern secret to melt and pressurize sand in his stomach." I'd say, "Oh!! You can use your Discipline or Conviction to make maneuvers for Breath Weapon, kind of like you're shaping the sand internally before you slice up the bad guys. If that's what you like.... You can also add any bonus from strength powers, too, if you're throwing the glass like daggers. It's up to you."

If another player had Breath Weapon and wanted to just breathe fire, with no sort of "creative backstory," I'd encourage him to think about it because he might be able to come up with something cool, but not limit him in anyway if he just thought he wanted to be a dragon scion with fire breath. I'd have a hard time justifying fire breath being modified by any sort of strength power, though, unless he said he could create a physical construct of fire. If the fire breather said, "The longer I hold my breath, the more pressure builds up." I'd be ok with him using Endurance or something to create maneuvers. If he wanted to find a way to get some sort of bonus from another power, I'd work with him to figure that out even if it meant coming up with a new power for the game.

[Lawgiver]

...the arrow would do more damage ONLY because the bow can store more potential energy before being fired. Using guns again: a stronger person can more easily shoot a heavy gun. But the "machine" is doing the actual propelling forward.

This is exactly what I was driving at. The stored potential and mechanical action of a bow, pistol or catapult do not use the physical strength of the user as a factor in its power. You draw, cock or wind (as the case may be) and then... release that stored potential. Usually with a simple motion (let go, finger twitch, cut a rope/pull a pin). Your work was done when the machine was 'set' and ready to go. It does all the work after that, you muscles mean nothing.

I don't think people should be punished for creativity.  It 'encourages' a certain type of breath weapon that stacks with strength, since 'throwing' a weapon will be more optimal than 'breathing' fire, for instance.

If you're going to let Strength powers stack with breath weapon, then you should allow it across the board.

Using the bow analogy, someone with breath weapons and strength powers is going to have a weapon that best suits their abilities and, therefore, be more powerful.  So someone with a str. power is going to have a bow that will make use of their strength - why wouldn't they?  it's an innate power.

If you're going to restrict it, then you should restrict it across the board and not favour one type of character fluff over another.

But I do see (and generally agree) with the perspective that it depends on the type breath weapon. If it's single target focused, point-of-impact like a hammer, knife or bullet, fine, strength adds wouldn't bother me. But if it's more area affect like an explosion, no way.

I don't see what D&D has to do with anything here...

I was using it as a point of reference for my comments. There were actually some well thought out reasonings behind why some of those old rules were they way they were. Thought it would help others get the point.

[zakmo86]

Can Strength enhancements add to the damage caused by the Breath Weapon power?
Can Breath Weapon count as a weapon when it come to defense?

So, Tempestraire. I think the answer is... it's up to you, the GM and your table!! Good luck with your game and this has been a fun conversation about Breath Weapon. It's got me to thinking about NPCs to throw at my players. Thank you, everyone and happy gaming!!!