How long would it take to open and close a Way a physical conflict?

[moireth]

Would it be possible for a player character to open a way in front of a charging opponent, the opponent go through it, and the PC close it?

If so, can someone give me a breakdown of how they would structure it assuming the PC has a Superb (+5) conviction and discipline?

[Haru]

Well, a character specialized in nevernever travel one way or another should be able to do something like this. In fact

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Harry does something like this. When the ceiling is collapsing in on him, he opens a rift above him to send the material to the other side instead of crushing him.

Though you should be careful with this. Opening a rift like this can easily become a conflict stopper. You get attacked, you open a rift, conflict over. That's a bit too powerful, I would say.

So instead, I would probably do something like a tunnel effect. Someone is charging at you, you open a rift in front of you and behind you and the thug is entering in front of you and exiting behind you, confused where you went.

Mechanically, that would be a block. The slight problem with that is that you have to create it before someone attacks you, but lets stick with it for now, because RAW doesn't really allow magic as a defensive action.

A block is set up at a predetermined strength. You want to get it as high as possible for the lowest stress cost, because if the block is causing more stress than the attack it blocks, that would be silly. A good spot to go for is equal to your discipline, since Fate dice, on average, show a 0. In this case that would mean a 5 shift block. Since your conviction is also 5, that means you take 1 shift of mental stress for the spell. Then you roll discipline to see if you can control the spell, which happens if you roll equal or higher than the power you want to draw. And Presto, you have yourself a block. Only instead of narrating it as a translucent dome or energy, you narrate it as your opponent taking a detour through the nevernever, missing you entirely.

Reactionary spells can be done with enchanted items, at least some GMs (me included) allow that. That would mean you'd store the same spell as above in an enchanted item and activate it when you get attacked for the same result.

If the block only takes away part of the attack, the attacker could have gone through but reacted fast enough to catch you in the back before you turned around. Or he had to step to the side to avoid the portal and hit you at a bad angle. Things like that.

[Taran]

The rules for opening ways is thaumaturgy...so it depends how long your group thinks thaumaturgy takes.  Some groups play it that anything equal or below your lore can be cast as fast as evocation, while others think thaumaturgy always takes more time. 

If you say that you can cast thaumaturgy as fast as evocation, then you can do as Haru suggests and make it a block.  But remember, once the Way is open, you don't really have lots of control over how long it stays open.  (see below)

The complexity is usually around 5 but every round the way is open, it attacks your spell with a strength equal to the strength of the way.  So, to keep it open for a whole combat reliably, you'd need 9 shifts of complexity to keep it open (5+4(for the best possible roll)=9

I usually say it's at least one minute to use thaumaturgy (assuming you have all the ingredients: ie: your lore is higher or equal to the complexity)  after that, it's one exchange to control power.  So if you have many shifts of power to control and you want to control it in 3 shift groups, that's 3 exchanges to control a 9 shift ritual. 

So, let's say you want to escape, your group may have to spend time fending off enemies until you open the Way.  After that, they have limited time to get through before it shuts unless you devote complexity to hold it longer. 

It could be a tense scene if set up that way.  I think a way stays open for a scene or until it collapses.  So if you want it to stay open longer, you have to devote shifts.

Lastly, since you don't know what's on the other side, you might be setting yourself up for a more dangerous encounter - which I'd handle with a compel.

[wyvern]

The rules for opening ways is thaumaturgy...so it depends how long your group thinks thaumaturgy takes.  Some groups play it that anything equal or below your lore can be cast as fast as evocation, while others think thaumaturgy always takes more time.

Just for reference, the Paranet Papers book has some clarifications on how long thaumaturgy is supposed to take, including (optional) rules for trying to work a ritual during combat.  Short summary: must be equal or less than your lore in complexity before you can even try, requires several rounds of setup (or a large pile of fate points and applicable aspects), during which any damage interrupts the process (and you can't even dodge!), and once that's done you can follow the normal rules for drawing power as outlined in the original book.

[Haru]

The rules for opening ways is thaumaturgy...so it depends how long your group thinks thaumaturgy takes.  Some groups play it that anything equal or below your lore can be cast as fast as evocation, while others think thaumaturgy always takes more time. 

It's thaumaturgy for Harry, but I could easily see a character that does it as evocation. Usually though, you're right. That's why I was trying to go for the middle ground, you can do it but not in a conflict stopping way.

[Taran]

Just for reference, the Paranet Papers book has some clarifications on how long thaumaturgy is supposed to take, including (optional) rules for trying to work a ritual during combat.  Short summary: must be equal or less than your lore in complexity before you can even try, requires several rounds of setup (or a large pile of fate points and applicable aspects), during which any damage interrupts the process (and you can't even dodge!), and once that's done you can follow the normal rules for drawing power as outlined in the original book.

Woo hoo!  That clarification was long overdue.

So, there you go.  Unless you have evo-thaum, the barrier of the Way needs to be less than or equal to your Lore+appropriate foci.

If you have a specialty in Travel magic, or are some kind of focused practitioner (which would be using FP's to invoke aspects) you could probably do it.

Edit:  if you had World Walking, you could probably do it in an action...but world walking doesn't let you hold open the portal.  Probably Lore check to open up the portal?  I'm too lazy to look at my book.

[dragoonbuster]

It's thaumaturgy for Harry, but I could easily see a character that does it as evocation. Usually though, you're right. That's why I was trying to go for the middle ground, you can do it but not in a conflict stopping way.

It's really not thaum for Harry. I don't recall a single instance of a Way being opened with a circle, ever. Despite the what thaumaturgy section in Your World says, I've always considered a "quick I need a portal now!" spell to be Spirit evocation.Yes, that makes Spirit even more powerful, but oh well.

Case in point is the anecdote about Harry in the second post.

If you feel that's it's necessary, make it a stunt or take/create Superior Worldwalking.

[Cadd]

I'd say that what the OP is suggesting is really neither a block nor a thaumaturgy ritual.
It's a Take-Out.

To clarify: My personal ruling on opening a rift to the Nevernever is sort of in-between. I require that you have Thaumaturgy to be able to do it with magic (as opposed to Worldwaker/Swift Transition/High Concept invoke), but you only have to make it a Ritual if you can't easily summon up all the required power in one go. If you could control the power in one round you can do it instantaneous - trained Wizards of the White Council don't spend minutes opening a way, neither does anyone else on the same power scale.
However, since most of the openings happen out of any really pressured situation, we just narrate it - no need to bring in the dice.

Given that, if opening a portal at the place the fight takes place is possible for the character, I would gladly let someone narrate a Take Out result as opening a way that the enemy rushes through. If it actually should remove the opponent from the conflict, it can't really be anything but a Take Out.

Haru's Block version, not removing the opponent from the fight but only "blinking" the attack past you, is a really cool version for an experienced, Way-focused wizard. It's not something I'd allow just any wizard to do, but there is precedent in the books for that kind of blocking (even if we don't know if it involved the NN or was just managed some other strange way) - Listens to Wind vs the Naagloshii.

[dragoonbuster]

I'd say that what the OP is suggesting is really neither a block nor a thaumaturgy ritual.
It's a Take-Out.

To clarify: My personal ruling on opening a rift to the Nevernever is sort of in-between. I require that you have Thaumaturgy to be able to do it with magic (as opposed to Worldwaker/Swift Transition/High Concept invoke), but you only have to make it a Ritual if you can't easily summon up all the required power in one go. If you could control the power in one round you can do it instantaneous - trained Wizards of the White Council don't spend minutes opening a way, neither does anyone else on the same power scale.
However, since most of the openings happen out of any really pressured situation, we just narrate it - no need to bring in the dice.

Given that, if opening a portal at the place the fight takes place is possible for the character, I would gladly let someone narrate a Take Out result as opening a way that the enemy rushes through. If it actually should remove the opponent from the conflict, it can't really be anything but a Take Out.

Haru's Block version, not removing the opponent from the fight but only "blinking" the attack past you, is a really cool version for an experienced, Way-focused wizard. It's not something I'd allow just any wizard to do, but there is precedent in the books for that kind of blocking (even if we don't know if it involved the NN or was just managed some other strange way) - Listens to Wind vs the Naagloshii.

Agreed on the OP Take-Out ruling, and the requiring Thaum to open one w/o a ritual. I haven't had a FP try to open a Way before, actually, so I hadn't thought about it.

[moireth]

Well, in my game, if you can use Spirit with Evocation and can make a successful Lore assessment and then  gather the power in one turn you can do it.  Otherwise it takes thaum.

[zakmo86]

In the series, opening a Way is almost always evocation. And Harry uses fire magic in the cave under the Wraith estate to "burn" through the veil, if I'm remembering correctly.

In one game I ran, I had a ghost fighting the characters and he could open a Way that pulled the PCs into his demense by making an attack against their discipline to resist the pull of the magic or alertness/athletics to dodge before they were pulled through. The players' choice. There were "minion" ghosts on the other side, so it wasn't a game stopper for any PC that failed the roll.

You might could model something like that where the player uses a worldwalking power/spell to open a Way to a demense of sorts, but the opponent is shunted through a "tunnel" to another zone. The shifts you get could allow for an additional zone away.  1 for 1. Or you could say 2 shifts for one zone because of the nature of this kind of magic. Ways shift and move all the time according to Lea in Changes. This might be because the emotion in an area can change. You might could justify your PC's ability to always have his demense "with him" because he changes the energy around him.

These are just ideas I'm throwing out. Not necessarily the way I'd do it. I just hope one idea leads to another, much better one.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I could see this being done with any element, so long as you can make the proper assessment.

Spirit: See into the world beyond and pull it closer
Fire: Burn away the veil
Water: entropy breaks down the walls of reality
Earth: part the physical bounds
Air: create a magical vacuum