Fighting While Hidden

[Sanctaphrax]

Recently, in a game I GM, there was a fight scene in which many of the combatants entered combat under a veil. And I wasn't quite sure how to handle that rules-wise. I slapped together a workable set of rules for that scene, but now that it's over I'd like to come up with something more solid.

So that's what this thread is for. This is a work in progress, so I'd quite like to get some community input here.

Here's what I've got:

You become hidden by creating a veil or taking an action to make a Stealth roll. Record the strength of your veil or your Stealth roll when you become hidden. That's your hiddenness.

A hidden character stops being hidden if they take an obvious action like a melee attack, casting a spell, throwing something, or trying to grapple someone. Subtle-ish ranged attacks (like with a gun or a bow), sprinting, and other actions that don't make your location totally obvious just reduce your hiddenness by 1. Really subtle actions, like aiming, don't reduce your hiddenness at all.

When you attack or maneuver against someone who's hidden, they can apply their hidden value as a block against your attack. If they do, your Alertness modifies whatever skill you used. Regardless, if you succeed they are no longer hidden. If it turns out that they're not in range of your action you can use a supplemental move to get closer, and if that's not enough your action fails. But they're still revealed.

(Yes, this means that someone with high Weapons/Fists/Guns and low Alertness can find hidden people. I figure Weapons/Fists/Guns includes some tracking-the-enemy-in-battle stuff, because real fighting skills require that stuff...)

So yeah, that's what I've got. Not totally pleased with it. In particular, I think maybe Speed should let you make melee attacks and move without revealing yourself. It has some stealth applications, after all.

Also, it should probably be possible to ambush people if you're hidden. But I don't want it to be easy, because ambushes are deadly.

Thoughts?

[sdfds68]

Since a veil is a spell, doesn't it have duration built into it?

Because if that's the case, the veil would stay up when the attacker is attacking, just like any other block made with spellcasting powers, right?

I don't think reducing 'hiddenness' is the best way to handle subtle actions from stealth. If somebody wants to do something stealthily, then if it doesn't seem like it would break stealth, they just do it. Less bookkeeping, since that way stealth can just be treated as a block.

Finally, if you've got a veil up before attacking something, you probably just get to ambush them if they didn't notice you were there. Surprise attacks are easy if you're the Invisible Man. Or the invisible demons about chew my face off.

[Haru]

Well, I think the easiest way to go would be to let the veiled characters do an ambush attack against the non-veiled and if anyone survives, treat it as a regular conflict.

Otherwise, I'm kind of reminded of the first annual ninja conference.

(click to show/hide)

If there's only 2 sides and they are veiled, roll alertness to pierce the veils. Then there are basically 3 ways this can go:

1. Nobody sees each other.
This basically means that nothing is going to happen. Each party might as well proceed as if nothing happened. Of course they might know of each other and simply not know where they are, in that case it's a case of playing chicken. Someone has to do something first, or you stay locked in a stale mate. You could have a contest to see who caves first or alternately who gets a bonus for going first, depending on how you want to frame it.

2. One side sees the other.
This can be handled like an ambush. You can't defend against what you can't see. If you only can't see but know someone is there, you could grant a free invoke on the "veiled" aspect on the first attack as a middle ground. After that, it's conflict as usual.
If the party that's still veiled doesn't want to fight, you could go for a conflict to sneak around vs. pierce the veil.

3. Everyone sees each other.
Nothing much to do, just roll initiative and have at it.

Basically, a veil is going to prevent a conflict from ever forming, if it is kept up. I would go for a different kind of mechanic until it becomes a conflict.

Veils during a conflict can simply be resolved as blocks. It might be a bit weird to "block" a gunshot with a veil, but it's also weird to "see" someone with a gunshot. That's just the level of abstraction the system is working at. If you want to use a veil to get out of a conflict, I'd say that's a concession. Though if you go straight for a veil, you might as well resolve the situation with something other than a conflict.

[killking72]

Couple of ways to do this.

1: The initial go of combat I would let the people use the strength of their veil as pretty much their roll for stealth like other blocks. ex. Generic Magical block 5b gives you 3 shifts, so that's all you get.
So 1 is an extremely powerful way to go about it

2: Now for doing the maneuvers or subtle actions like you said. The aiming or any other roll that requires you to see the target, you either have to take the -2 from the veil or the mage has to have that in his veil cost. People wanting to throw stuff out of your veil should be allowed as long as it isn't major (see Changes). Attacks would still take down the veil. I think the only way to balance attacking out of a veil would be this example.
ex. You want to throw a rock with weapons value 0. You lean back to toss the rock and roll (effective 5 aim). The mage has to roll discipline to keep the veil up against those shifts since the act of throwing it would disrupt the veil unless he could control it. The reasoning is because you cant underhand toss a rock and expect to do any damage so you really have to wind up and chuck it. Whole body moving for the chuck could disrupt the veil.

3. Attack skill modified by alertness makes sense. BUT I wouldn't make the shifts added by alertness add into extra damage. Just use it for figuring out if the veil is down or not.

[Sanctaphrax]

To be clear: I'm not talking about assassinations or anything like that here. I'm talking about regular fights, except some of the participants are invisible or hiding.

Since a veil is a spell, doesn't it have duration built into it?

Because if that's the case, the veil would stay up when the attacker is attacking, just like any other block made with spellcasting powers, right?

Veils are sometimes spells and sometimes not spells. And Stealth rolls are pretty much never spells.

Regardless of the reason people don't know where you are...attacking them is going to give them some clues. And that's a good thing, because being hidden is really powerful.

That's also why I don't want to give automatic ambushes to hidden folks. It's too strong. And anyway, if there's a fight on their guard is probably up even if they can't see you.

Basically, a veil is going to prevent a conflict from ever forming, if it is kept up. I would go for a different kind of mechanic until it becomes a conflict.

Yes, everything is simple enough until it becomes a conflict. This thread is about what happens once the conflict starts.

Veils during a conflict can simply be resolved as blocks. It might be a bit weird to "block" a gunshot with a veil, but it's also weird to "see" someone with a gunshot. That's just the level of abstraction the system is working at.

So you'd let people know where their veiled opponents are, even if they can't see them?

The thing is, a block only stops actions. It doesn't hide any information. Veils and Stealth, in theory, do.

3. Attack skill modified by alertness makes sense. BUT I wouldn't make the shifts added by alertness add into extra damage. Just use it for figuring out if the veil is down or not.

Why not? If they're relying on invisibility to protect them, your ability to find them should affect how much damage you can do to them.

ex. You want to throw a rock with weapons value 0. You lean back to toss the rock and roll (effective 5 aim). The mage has to roll discipline to keep the veil up against those shifts since the act of throwing it would disrupt the veil unless he could control it. The reasoning is because you cant underhand toss a rock and expect to do any damage so you really have to wind up and chuck it. Whole body moving for the chuck could disrupt the veil.

I don't like the idea that a more skilled attack is harder to conceal. And having a mage roll Discipline is only appropriate when you're dealing with a spell veil, which isn't the only or even the main situation in question here.

[Taran]

1. I don't think alertness should modify your attack.  It should RESTRICT.  You should never get a bonus to attack someone who's invisible.

2.  Obviously, if the veiled party doesn't do anything to bring attention to themselves, there won't be an issue.  Either you spot them (and conflict ensues) or you don't (and they sneak by or try to ambush  you).

2. Spellcasting veils drop as soon as they are pierced.  Glamours do not, so they add the complications.  This is where the issue is.  In the game we played, both sides were veiled, Meanwhile, illusions of everyone were up.  So while it looked like two groups having a polite discussion, we were all trying to out-maneuver each other.  When the fight happened, only some of the people fighting knew who were illusions and where the veiled people were.  They veiled people were using the illusions to keep their attacks hidden.  Many of the attacks were mental, so they wouldn't necessarily be obvious anyways.

3.  How I like to treat a veil is similar to a Grapple, where narratively appropriate actions break the veil.  Just because someone behind a glamour shoots you, doesn't necessarily make you visible.  You could shoot, then change zones with a supplemental (or multiple zones with speed powers).  So, while everyone thinks the shot came from the Grassy Knoll (which it may have), it doesn't mean you'll still be there when people are shooting back.

So, getting back to the Grapple:  narratively appropriate means that you, mechanically, have to spot the target (using a perception based skill).  Otherwise, attacking and hitting doesn't reveal the target - it just lets you hit them.  So the veil acting as a block just represents people swinging or shooting blindly and getting lucky, grazing hits.

If you want to take down the veil, you have to spend your action to make and make a successful Investigation or Alertness roll.  You can use declarations like "I saw a muzzle flash from the grassy knoll!"  to boost your roll.  Otherwise you just fire blindly at the knoll.  If the enemy is still there, they use their dodge or the veil (whichever is higher), or if they moved, you automatically miss.

I also like to do the following:  If you do something obvious, everyone gets a free awareness to see you(without having to spend an action).  So, the more often you do obvious things, the higher the chances are that you're going to get seen.

I like the idea of chipping away at a veil though.  What if you could have a successful attack lower the total of a veil (making it easier for everyone to see you).  Kind of like a ward.

Example:  veil strength 5. 
I roll a weapons of 7 restricted by alertness = 6

I can choose to do damage 1 shift + weapon damage

or I can take that shift and have it lower the veil to 4.  Narratively, the person is trailing blood, or something similar making it easier to spot them.  You'd need to spend another action to re-veil yourself, if you wanted to get it back to 5.

[sdfds68]

Veils are sometimes spells and sometimes not spells. And Stealth rolls are pretty much never spells.

If it's not a spell, then it's just an ordinary block or maneuver, not matter how many weird powers or declarations or whatever are involved. If it is a spell, it runs out at some point.

Regardless of the reason people don't know where you are...attacking them is going to give them some clues. And that's a good thing, because being hidden is really powerful.

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by 'being hidden.' What mechanics are you referring to that allow characters to 'hide' besides spellcasting and the stealth skill?

That's also why I don't want to give automatic ambushes to hidden folks. It's too strong. And anyway, if there's a fight on their guard is probably up even if they can't see you.

Hidden folks do not have automatic ambushes. You have to roll to set up an ambush with the stealth skill, and that is going to be opposed by whomever you're trying to hide from. But some people could repeatedly ambush during a fight if they have a way to hide themselves even during combat, such as spending enough fate points or have an appropriate stunt/power.

A GM doesn't have to allow this, and can certainly houserule that this type of behavior isn't allowed, but as far as I know it's just part of the system.

[Taran]

If it's not a spell, then it's just an ordinary block or maneuver, not matter how many weird powers or declarations or whatever are involved. If it is a spell, it runs out at some point.

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by 'being hidden.' What mechanics are you referring to that allow characters to 'hide' besides spellcasting and the stealth skill?

Spells create blocks maneuvers.  So it's almost irrelevant whether the veil comes from a spell or not. 

A veil is specifically a block on Perception - regardless whether or not it's created by a glamour, spell or stealth.

The difference between a spell and a glamour/stealth is that, regardless of duration, once you overcome a spell block, it goes away.  This is not necessarily so with a glamour.

Hidden folks do not have automatic ambushes. You have to roll to set up an ambush with the stealth skill, and that is going to be opposed by whomever you're trying to hide from. But some people could repeatedly ambush during a fight if they have a way to hide themselves even during combat, such as spending enough fate points or have an appropriate stunt/power.

A GM doesn't have to allow this, and can certainly houserule that this type of behavior isn't allowed, but as far as I know it's just part of the system.

This is a matter of interpretation.  They say a veil replaces your stealth....but a veil does not necessarily give you the "AMBUSH" trapping of stealth.

Your GM may still adjudicate that you have to make a Stealth skill check for an ambush, even if your veil is of epic calibre....

Some people just let the veil determine the quality of an ambush.

[sdfds68]

Spells create blocks maneuvers.  So it's almost irrelevant whether the veil comes from a spell or not. 

A veil is specifically a block on Perception - regardless whether or not it's created by a glamour, spell or stealth.

The difference between a spell and a glamour/stealth is that, regardless of duration, once you overcome a spell block, it goes away.  This is not necessarily so with a glamour.

A spell made block has a built in time limit, due to persistence. A block made 'with' glamour isn't made by the power, it's made a skill roll. After it's been overcome, the block is gone, but the narrative power of the glamour is still present.

Someone using glamour would still need to make skill rolls to make a new block versus perception, but they wouldn't need a narrative reason to explain why this is possible, unlike someone with just a stealth skill, because they can rely on their spent refresh to cover that.

This is a matter of interpretation.  They say a veil replaces your stealth....but a veil does not necessarily give you the "AMBUSH" trapping of stealth.

Your GM may still adjudicate that you have to make a Stealth skill check for an ambush, even if your veil is of epic calibre....

Some people just let the veil determine the quality of an ambush.

I don't understand. A trapping is part of the skill. How you can replace the skill without also replacing all of the trappings?

Also, how is a veil not a skill roll or spell?

[Taran]

A spell made block has a built in time limit, due to persistence. A block made 'with' glamour isn't made by the power, it's made a skill roll. After it's been overcome, the block is gone, but the narrative power of the glamour is still present.

I can't argue with the glamour.  I find it a bit hazy, mechanically.  I use them like any other skill block.  I allow a block created by a skill to stay as long as its narratively appropriate.

But spell blocks go away after they are overcome, regardless of persistence:

(click to show/hide)

1 shift of power adds 1 to the block strength
of the block action. Three shifts of power create
a block strength of Good (+3). Any attack that
bypasses the block cancels it out.

Someone using glamour would still need to make skill rolls to make a new block versus perception, but they wouldn't need a narrative reason to explain why this is possible, unlike someone with just a stealth skill, because they can rely on their spent refresh to cover that.

If someone spots you, I usually say that you can be seen.  Other people still may not know where you are.  If you want the person who spotted you to not be able to see you anymore, you'd need to "re-hide".  Which is another skill check and appropriate justification.  I agree, glamours makes justification way easier than stealth.  With a spell, if someone spots you, it ruins the spell so everyone can see you...which I find strange, but that seems to be the rules.  But you can just cast another spell and be veiled again without needing any other justification.

I don't understand. A trapping is part of the skill. How you can replace the skill without also replacing all of the trappings?

Well, just because I know how to hide, it doesn't mean I know how to Ambush.  And a veil isn't making you sneaky, it's just magically making you invisible...so  It makes it hard for others to see/hear you but doesn't imbue you with the ability to be sneaky.    (that said, it depends on the type of magic you use...maybe it does make you sneakier, but I see that as thaumaturgical skill replacement rather than the realm of evocation/glamour)

Mechanically, ambush is a skill trapping of stealth.  If you have high stealth, you can do all the trappings of stealth, including ambushing creating a block on perception. (at your skill level)

A spell veil or glamour is a only block on perception.  It doesn't give you access to any other skill trappings.

Also, how is a veil not a skill roll or spell?

A veil is not a skill roll or a spell.  It's a block on perception:  You can create that block via a skill roll (using stealth or deceit/discipline, if you have glamours); or via a spell.

[sdfds68]

I'm sorry, I've been arguing while under some misconceptions about the rules. I assumed that ambushes were 'free' whenever someone successfully managed not to be noticed by other characters, rather than being a trapping of a specific skill. I also assumed that evocation allowed skill replacement on the fly, which is definitely not in YS.

[Haru]

Yes, everything is simple enough until it becomes a conflict. This thread is about what happens once the conflict starts.

I was trying to answer that, apologies if it wasn't clear. We are in agreement that veils in conflict can complicate things. My solution is to not start a conflict until all veils are resolved or break a conflict if a veil becomes predominant. That way the two never meet and don't make any problems.

So in your example of everyone going into the fight veiled, I would not start that fight as a conflict but first do, for example, a contest to resolve the veils. Depending on how that goes, I would award benefits to the victorious parties and then move on with a regular conflict.

So you'd let people know where their veiled opponents are, even if they can't see them?

Well, sort of. I don't have a problem with the players knowing, and I can veto any directed action that the character wouldn't have enough knowledge to do (though they might get lucky by spending a fate point). But zone attacks, for example, are seldom a problem and that's usually the solution people come up with to deal with a veiled foe.

I also don't let people do very much while under a veil. You can cower there for as long as you like, but you won't be able to do anything either. If nobody can do anything we are at a stalemate and I would break the scene to solve it another way. Probably hold a short contest and give an ambush like bonus to the victor.

[Taran]

I'm sorry, I've been arguing while under some misconceptions about the rules. I assumed that ambushes were 'free' whenever someone successfully managed not to be noticed by other characters, rather than being a trapping of a specific skill. I also assumed that evocation allowed skill replacement on the fly, which is definitely not in YS.

Well, I wouldn't say they are total misconceptions.

Ambushes are a trapping of stealth but, as I mentioned earlier, many GM's use any kind of stealth equivalents (veils created by spell or glamours) to justify an ambush round.

Regarding Skill replacement and evocation: one of Elain's "Hyperawareness" spell in YS explains how a GM could allow the power of the spell to work as an initiative roll...but it's pretty clear that it's not the norm.  That's the realm of thaumaturgy or evothaum....

I also don't let people do very much while under a veil. You can cower there for as long as you like, but you won't be able to do anything either. If nobody can do anything we are at a stalemate and I would break the scene to solve it another way. Probably hold a short contest and give an ambush like bonus to the victor.

I like the idea of fighting while Invisible.  Isn't that what the skinwalker did to Harry?

[Sanctaphrax]

1. I don't think alertness should modify your attack.  It should RESTRICT.  You should never get a bonus to attack someone who's invisible.

Under the rules I proposed, it would never be easier to hit an invisible person. You only use Alertness to modify if they replace their defence roll with the block, which they won't do unless it's better. And modifying can only add 1.

3.  How I like to treat a veil is similar to a Grapple, where narratively appropriate actions break the veil.  Just because someone behind a glamour shoots you, doesn't necessarily make you visible.

With a grapple, "narratively appropriate actions" basically means any actions taken by the grappled person. Because narrating is easy.

Similarly, people could pretty much always justify their actions while veiled as not revealing their position. And that's a problem, since veils are powerful enough already.

I like the idea of chipping away at a veil though.  What if you could have a successful attack lower the total of a veil (making it easier for everyone to see you).  Kind of like a ward.

Example:  veil strength 5. 
I roll a weapons of 7 restricted by alertness = 6

I can choose to do damage 1 shift + weapon damage

or I can take that shift and have it lower the veil to 4.  Narratively, the person is trailing blood, or something similar making it easier to spot them.  You'd need to spend another action to re-veil yourself, if you wanted to get it back to 5.

That would make veils really really powerful.

With a spell, if someone spots you, it ruins the spell so everyone can see you...which I find strange, but that seems to be the rules.

Presumably they tell people where you are. And once people know where you are, it's easy for them to track your movements.

I was trying to answer that, apologies if it wasn't clear. We are in agreement that veils in conflict can complicate things. My solution is to not start a conflict until all veils are resolved or break a conflict if a veil becomes predominant. That way the two never meet and don't make any problems.

So what if someone decides to attack someone who can't see them? Say two groups of soldiers are fighting. One member of one group is hidden in a sniper post, and one member of the other group is wearing an invisibility cloak enchanted item that provides a veil. Nobody sees through the stealth attempts before the shooting starts.

Do you arbitrarily prevent the hidden fighters from participating? Do you give them one free ambush and then declare them visible? Do you declare them visible, but with some Aspect tags?

I also don't let people do very much while under a veil. You can cower there for as long as you like, but you won't be able to do anything either.

How does the veil prevent you from acting?

Are you trying to say that the veil just fails if you do much under it?

[Taran]

Under the rules I proposed, it would never be easier to hit an invisible person. You only use Alertness to modify if they replace their defence roll with the block, which they won't do unless it's better. And modifying can only add 1.

It's easier if you're getting a +1 to your weapons value when you'd normally get a +0 if they were visible.  And just because they're using their veil to dodge, doesn't mean they're harder to hit:  Maybe their dodge is better but they just rolled poorly.  Or maybe you'd be able to hit them anyways, despite the veil.  You shouldn't be able to hit them harder because they're invisible.

With a grapple, "narratively appropriate actions" basically means any actions taken by the grappled person. Because narrating is easy.

You adjudicate grapple differently than I do, so I guess it's not a good example.  I don't necessarily let successful attacks break a grapple. 

Similarly, people could pretty much always justify their actions while veiled as not revealing their position. And that's a problem, since veils are powerful enough already.

You've misunderstood and have what I'm saying backwards.  In the analogy, the veiled people are the grapplers, not the grapplees.  So it's the people trying to find the veiled target who need the narrative justification, not the other way around.

That would make veils really really powerful.

Allowing a veil to stick around after someone attacks makes it more powerful but not moreso than a regular block.

I'm just saying that you should need a perception check to bring it down instead of another type of
action.

Presumably they tell people where you are. And once people know where you are, it's easy for them to track your movements.

Yeah, that's kind of the assumption I make but then glamours should work the same way.

So what if someone decides to attack someone who can't see them? Say two groups of soldiers are fighting. One member of one group is hidden in a sniper post, and one member of the other group is wearing an invisibility cloak enchanted item that provides a veil. Nobody sees through the stealth attempts before the shooting starts.

Here's a suggestion that might be simpler.

If you are veiled, no-one can shoot you except with zone-wide attacks because they don't know you are there and can't target you.

Once you attack, you can be targeted.  You can use the veil to dodge(take your dodge or veil, whichever is higher).  If you used the veil to defend, it goes away - whether the attack hits or not.  You've given away your position, but your hiddenness was enough to dodge(or almost dodge) that last attack.

It makes them marginally useful but not overpowered in a combat situation. Being veiled can save your skin...but only once.  They're mostly for out-of-combat situations. 

For attacking while veiled, instead of tracking a hiddeness factor, just give people free chances to spot you when you attack.

Options:
1. a)Once one person spots you, the veil is gone (easiest)
    b)Once one person spots you, the veil no longer applies to that person, but still applies to everyone else who failed to spot you.(bookkeeping)

2.  a) Every time you attack, everyone gets a chance to spot you for free
     b) If they fail to spot you at the beginning of the combat, they get no more free alertness checks.  They either have to spend an action or invoke an aspect to spot try to spot you for free.

I think it works well for the cloak of invisibility guy but maybe not the sniper.  You need to spot a sniper before you can target him at all, even when he's shooting...but that just may be a distance thing.  A good sniper is going to be at least 3 zones away, so you'd need another sniper to hit him(or a speed power)...but that's why snipers constantly change positions.

I wonder if number of zones should be a factor?  I remember playing Battlefeild and having a sniper picking people off.  You're hiding behind cover waiting for shots, trying to spot the muzzle-flash.  You can't just shoot him because you don't even know what zone he's in.