Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why

[forumghost]

Even so. Kringle is a trickster deity in disguise, remember ?

Ah, so we're back to your favourite pose of 'everyone is lying to Harry any time something happens that contradicts my theory'. Good to know.

[brighellac]

Ah, so we're back to your favourite pose of 'everyone is lying to Harry any time something happens that contradicts my theory'. Good to know.

Commence trolling

It's the IN Harry who always get lied to.  The OUT Harry gets the straight scoop at all times

End trolling

[raidem]

I like it.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Ah, so we're back to your favourite pose of 'everyone is lying to Harry any time something happens that contradicts my theory'. Good to know.

No, we're on my long-established position of "Odin says whatever he wants to attain the end he wants and its relation to truth is immaterial, because he's a trickster deity and that goes with the territory."

If you want to claim I think everyone is lying to Harry, find an example where I've said it about Michael.  Or Sanya. Or Mab. Heck, even Murphy would do.  Otherwise, please stop treating my reasoned assessment of the differing reliability of different characters in the series as if it was either "everyone always lies" or cherrypicking for convenience.

[forumghost]

I'm not saying that you think everyone is lying to Harry. I'm saying that whenever someone provides something from the text that runs counter to whatever theory you're arguing for, your default response it "that isn't evidence that I'm wrong, it just proves that that character is lying/Harry is misinterpreting that/Jim is tricking us/whatever".

Which is especially ridiculous when the character in question (Kringle) is a Fae, and therefore physically incapable of lying.

Quite frankly it makes it near impossible to have any sort of reasonable discussion with you because you fit the evidence to your conclusion, rather then drawing a conclusion from the evidence.

[Carl]

Which is especially ridiculous when the character in question (Kringle) is a Fae, and therefore physically incapable of lying.

That only applies to sidhe.

ebliss hit the nail on the head IMO. Mab's got major issues to deal with at the gates and just cannot afford to have people stabbing her in the back.

[Griffyn612]

That only applies to sidhe.

ebliss hit the nail on the head IMO. Mab's got major issues to deal with at the gates and just cannot afford to have people stabbing her in the back.

And when Odin is acting as Kringle, he's likely held by Winter Law or something like it.  There's a chance that he can't lie as Kringle.  It makes sense, really.  If the Fae mantles' natures are determined by human faith, then Kringle probably can't outright lie.

Harry can still lie because he's mortal and has free will.  I'm not sure that Odin really does.

[forumghost]

Oh, I have no doubt that Odin can lie. He's famous for being a trickster and a manipulator. One of his Names is "Oathbreaker".

But Kringle =/= Odin. Kringle is a Fae, and has to obey Fae rules. I also suspect that as Kringle he's vulnerable to Iron, but as Odin he isn't.

[Acalanthis]

One of his Names is "Oathbreaker".

I'd forgotten about that tidbit until now.  Wonder how Jim's going to play it out in-story?  After all, one keeping one's oath is hugely important in Dresden's world.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Oh, I have no doubt that Odin can lie. He's famous for being a trickster and a manipulator. One of his Names is "Oathbreaker".
But Kringle =/= Odin. Kringle is a Fae, and has to obey Fae rules. I also suspect that as Kringle he's vulnerable to Iron, but as Odin he isn't.

That strikes me as an assertion that thus far has not one shred of proof.

[Arjan]

That strikes me as an assertion that thus far has not one shred of proof.

As Kringle he is a winter king and subject to Mab. Woj calls him a winter king and a specific aspect of winter, a more benevolent one.

Harry would be wise to work via Kringle and not Odin, it is probably safer that way.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

As Kringle he is a winter king and subject to Mab.

Winter King, yes. Subject to mab ? I thought we had a WoJ somewhere that the Faerie Kings aren't technically subjects to their Queens, just generally go along with them because it's easier than making a fuss.

[Eldest Gruff]

Winter King, yes. Subject to mab ? I thought we had a WoJ somewhere that the Faerie Kings aren't technically subjects to their Queens, just generally go along with them because it's easier than making a fuss.

They have SOME latitude but they must be beholden to the Queens otherwise Kringle wouldn't have felt obliged to show up to Mac's in SG as anything.

[Acalanthis]

They have SOME latitude but they must be beholden to the Queens otherwise Kringle wouldn't have felt obliged to show up to Mac's in SG as anything.

I think that the distinction is that while the "Summer King", the Erlking, is nominally affiliated with Summer but is in reality a major lord of the Wyldfae, the "Winter King" is actually a member of Mab's court, hence why she can order him around.  At the same time, ol' Kringle is allowed latitude to act outside of the rules and restrictions of the Winter Fae in his role as Donar Vadderung, CEO of Monoc Securities, which is about as separate from the Fae as you can get.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

They have SOME latitude but they must be beholden to the Queens otherwise Kringle wouldn't have felt obliged to show up to Mac's in SG as anything.

Remind me where in the text it says he was obliged to show up ?