Poll

Who attacked Arctis Tor?  What was their motivation?  

The Circle
11 (21.2%)
The Outsiders/Nemesis (formerly known as the Black Council)
31 (59.6%)
The Red Court
0 (0%)
The Fomor
2 (3.8%)
A faction attacking while Maeve was in charge, so that she could sabotage the defenses
8 (15.4%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why  (Read 84956 times)

Offline Carl

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #165 on: February 24, 2015, 08:15:56 AM »
Quote
Mab could have supported the war pretty easily and it woudl have been pretty devistating to the Red Court even if Mab and Maeve never got involved themselves.   Harry was pretty clear.  If Winter and Summer got involved, it was suicide for the Red Courts. There are a lot of very powerful fey that would have a ball killing Red Court Vampires anytime they went anywhere near the never-never.   

The first indication that Mab knew about Maeve was small favor, which is after these events.   Does not mean she did not suspect Maeve earlier, but your argument still seems a stretch.

Maeve has not been doing her job in any way shape or form for the last 150 years, there's a WoJ about it and SG has Molly mention it. Maeve didn't start acting up when she got infected, she already was, getting infected just let her act out in even more ways.

You also totally missed my point. Not sure if that's my fault or not.

What i'm saying is that based on what i dug up i rate it at a very high probability that smacking down errant supernatural nations is Maeve's Job. Sure the winter army may get involved in particularly major cases, but it's still the Lady's jobe to be the tip of the spear. If Mab went after the RC though at this stage with her Lady AWOL the simple absence of the Lady from said spear would tell everyone with knowledge of how the Fae work in big flashing neon signs that the winter court has a queen AWOL, which makes the winter court look supremely weak, something Mab just cannot afford.
Possibly Ivy and Molly's biggest fan, i'm too chivalrous and kind for my own damm good. A bit like a certain Wizard we all know :).

Molly should get this shirt.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4254
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #166 on: February 24, 2015, 09:43:19 AM »
dspringer1,

The whole plot of PG is Mab trying to uncover a traitor.  If she crushes the plot, the traitor's plot does not advance.  If the plot does not advance, then the traitor is not uncovered.

Yes, but not just a traitor.  I wrote this a month or two ago but never posted it in a thread called Proven Guilty mysteries.

What did Nemesis think about the Red Court?  I think Nemesis probably saw them much as Nicodemus did.  Nic described them as well organized and annoying in the short-term and dangerous and fatal in the medium to long-term.  The Red Court had sorcerers, though we don’t know much about their abilities other than they were destructive.  It’s possible that some of these Red Court magic users had the ability to harm or at least slow down The Outsiders; much as some mortal wizards do, making the Red Court a target that the Outsiders would want to remove as much as the White Council of Wizards.

The Red Court may have had human wizards or sorcerers on the payroll and used them to call up Outsiders during the fighting which was described in Dead Beat, but the vamps would have been stupid to assume the Outsiders were simply a tool they could use to defeat the wizards.  More likely the Red Court was the tool of the Outsiders.

While kicking the White Council’s ass during a battle in Sicily, the Red King (probably) ordered his vampire warriors to chase the retreating White Council into the Nevernever, even though it meant going to war with both Winter and Summer.  We know from Changes that the Big Red was pretty much insane.  He was either Nemfected or just getting old and losing it as Duchess Arianna thought.

If he was Nemfected, the idea was to create a situation where the Red Court would be crushed by both Fairy Courts and any remaining wizards.  Meanwhile the White Council; crippled by the Red Court assault which battered it in Sicily and in the Congo, would be over-matched when the Outsiders could make a full assault on our realty.  Add to this, both Summer and Winter would take losses as well.  If the Red King was just going senile, the Outsiders, or I should say their Nemfected agents, saw the possibilities the Red Court’s assault in the Nevernever had opened.

Unfortunately for the Nemesis, Mab refused to play that game.  Many people think Mab had made some kind of bargain which precluded her from attacking the Red Court.  I think Mab saw that doing so immediately would be a huge mistake and decided the best thing she could do was to do nothing.  Mass most of her troops on the border with Summer, order them not to attack the Red Court even if the opportunity presented itself, and thereby pin Summer’s forces to their own border as well.  In this manner Mab temporarily preserved the Red Court, but because Harry had prevented Cowl from making himself into a demi-god and destroy the Senior Council, the White Council was also preserved.  Make no mistake, Mab wanted to see the Red Court pay for invading her turf; but she would defer punishing them until a time when doing so wouldn’t derail her own purpose of defeating the Outsiders.  The White Council would have to repair its losses first.

Mab also gained one other critical advantage by refusing to take the bait and attack the Red Court.  She forced Nemesis agents to make overt moves to attempt to achieve their goals.  Mab may have hindsight, intellectus or just a great intelligence network, but whatever she has, she doesn’t have the ability to easily discern the identity of those beings who have been taken over by Nemesis.  If she could do that she would have known Aurora was behind the murder of the Summer Knight.  She would have known early on that Lea was infected and might have prevented Maeve from being taken over.  Mab’s plan of sitting still worked.  It drew Thorned Namshiel, Maeve and possibly the Scarecrow (Eldest Fetch) into making overt moves.  My guess is when a way was opened for Thorned Namshiel to attack Arctis Tor, Maeve revealed herself as being Nemfected.  Thorned Namshiel revealed itself as being Nemfected or an Outside ally (Black Circle member) simply by leading the attack on Mab's capital. 
     
We can now understand the reason for so-called Black Council attack on Arctis Tor.  It was intended to force Mab to recall her troops to defend her home from the invaders, and allow Summer to attack the Reds.  An attack by Summer alone would not destroy the Red Court, but it would cut the Red Court down to size so neither side had an advantage and both the Red Court and White Council would continue to wear each other down.

However, the plan failed.  Whatever magic abilities Thorned Namshiel had and whatever allies it brought to the party, they couldn’t do more than kill a rear guard of Mab’s personal troll body guards.  Mab was too strong at the heart of her power to be intimidated into recalling her forces because Thorned Namshiel and company couldn’t break in.  We have never seen Mab do more than direct a battle, but there is a WoJ that states that she is very impressive when fighting.  So I guess even hellfire couldn’t melt Arctis Tor with Mab there.

However, there is an addendum to the above scenario.  Spiny boy and company couldn’t break in to Arctis Tor, but Mab couldn’t drive them away without recalling her forces from the border, so instead a parley occurred and a deal was struck.  Mab agreed to not directly involve herself in the activities which came next in Winter and specifically not to harm Eldest Fetch.  Thorned Namshiel probably promised to leave and never return.  Though you can’t trust the word of a Denarian, Mab would not have had to keep her word if Thorned Namshiel had not at least fulfilled the first part of the deal and left.  Mab kept her word but cheated in other ways, like going to Chicago and fixing Little Chicago so Harry Dresden could track the Fetches.

So in the end Mab identified Nemesis agents or allies; witnessed Harry eliminate Eldest Fetch who was likely Nemfected, or at least got further confirmation that Harry was the perfect choice to be her next Knight, and got to size up Molly's potential as a future recruit.  However, Maeve was able to win Lily's trust and start her long-con designed to destroy both Summer and Winter.  Nemesis; thanks to Maeve, got to see the Red Court take a beating ensuring the war would drag on, with the new goal of gradually wearing down both sides so when the time came neither the Council nor the Reds could hope to stand up to the Outsiders.   

« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 09:54:56 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline dspringer1

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #167 on: February 24, 2015, 04:28:06 PM »
I totally get the argument that PG is a mole hunt by Mab.  That Mab specifically acted in atypical ways to force infected fey to reveal themselves.    If it is indeed true that Maeve is the war leader of the winter fey, then keeping winter out of the war is the obvious tactic to hide that weakness.   

However, I still feel the argument is weak and overly complicated
•   If her true enemies are the outsiders, then her true enemies already know Maeve is infected.   So she takes this huge prestige hit (of not going to war)  to avoid her allies and neighbors from knowing weaknesses (Maeve refusing to lead)  that are obvious to her deadliest enemies?   Not sure that makes a lot of sense.   
•   What purpose would attacking Arctis Tor have for the Black Council/Outsiders?   Either Mab kills them or her guards kill them or other winter fey kill them.   The only reason they got in and out without heavy losses is because Mab let them.   Yes you can argue the black council was testing her to see if she is really insane, but insane people can kill intruders as easily as sane people.   Seems a very large risk for the black team to take unless they were confident that Mab would not kill them.   
•   Nothing about Maeve’s actions in the book indicated her infection.    So making the argument that Maeve revealed herself through her actions here seems a stretch given the evidence in the books.   
•   Mab could easily have started a war while specifically forbidding Maeve to participate.   It is no more “insane” than her other actions and equally likely to find her mole.   

It is far simpler to argue that Mab is constrained by a debt, one made to a White Council wizard she had no reason to suspect was allied with the Outsiders.   

BTW – my personal opinion is that Maeve revealed her infected status when she sent her 2nd in command (Green Teeth) to disrupt the Borden wedding and kill Georgia.  By all the laws of fey, Maeve should not have been able to do that.  Her conflict was with Harry and the Bordens were simply his tools in fey eyes.    Queens cannot order mortals to be harmed without cause.  The fact that Maeve did anyway showed she was infected.   

Offline namkcas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1650
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #168 on: February 24, 2015, 04:38:59 PM »
Quote
Nothing about Maeve’s actions in the book indicated her infection.

Maeve's interactions at Mac's Pub is where it became apparent.  She gave a straight answer.

Offline ebliss1

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1415
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #169 on: February 24, 2015, 06:30:54 PM »
KurtinStGeorge - love the analysis. Except for this piece:

Quote
However, there is an addendum to the above scenario.  Spiny boy and company couldn’t break in to Arctis Tor, but Mab couldn’t drive them away without recalling her forces from the border, so instead a parley occurred and a deal was struck.  Mab agreed to not directly involve herself in the activities which came next in Winter and specifically not to harm Eldest Fetch. 

This part doesn't track with what we've seen. Mab would never make a bargain with an invading enemy at the heart of her power to go away. To do so would be to indicate weakness, and Mab never shows weakness. I get how you are tying her inaction into a larger plan, but Mab's larger plans always have her dealing from a position of strength. If Thorned Namshiel and his forces had invaded Winter, won their way to the gates of Arctis Tor itself, and Mab says "If you go away and not attack me any longer, I'll give you _____ ", then it would appear to one and all that Mab was unable to defeat TN's forces in the middle of her domain. Regardless of whether it was part of a larger plan or not, that sort of show of weakness would never happen by Mab.

More likely is that Mab knew exactly how many of her forces would be necessary to destroy TN's attackers and she let them fight to the last man/faerie/thing, and that was that.

Making a Better World Whether You Like it or Not

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #170 on: February 24, 2015, 07:50:08 PM »
The attack looks more like a desperate action that failed. You do not attack Arctis Tor without a very good reason. It is a waste of resources and some of those resources were hidden resources, the use of hellfire points in that direction.

To even contemplate such an attack Nemesis must have thought she had a chance to achieve a worthwhile goal and that goal was not the capture of Arctis Tor, impossible to hold anyway, or the destruction of Mab, very unlikely to achieve.

Nemesis must also have been in a hurry to try something like this and not something more elaborate. There is only one explanation for that. Nemesis hoped to capture Lea before she could tell Mab about Maeves infection. Mab feigned some weakness and send all her troops away and waited for the attack. Nemesis hoped with Maeves help to get in and take Lea away but failed because Mab was ready and Maeve was revealed anyway. Lea was the bait and Nemesis went for it.

Maeve tried a second time with Harry but Lea had enough self control to prevent that.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #171 on: February 24, 2015, 08:21:13 PM »
Hey, how about the attack on Arctis Tor was an attack of opportunity similar to Murphy's belief that the car hit on Harry was an attack of opportunity.

It is given to us as a means of explanation in the same book.  Could it also be relevant to the attack on Arctis Tor too.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline dspringer1

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #172 on: February 24, 2015, 08:24:24 PM »
Quote
This part doesn't track with what we've seen. Mab would never make a bargain with an invading enemy at the heart of her power to go away. To do so would be to indicate weakness, and Mab never shows weakness. I get how you are tying her inaction into a larger plan, but Mab's larger plans always have her dealing from a position of strength. If Thorned Namshiel and his forces had invaded Winter, won their way to the gates of Arctis Tor itself, and Mab says "If you go away and not attack me any longer, I'll give you _____ ", then it would appear to one and all that Mab was unable to defeat TN's forces in the middle of her domain. Regardless of whether it was part of a larger plan or not, that sort of show of weakness would never happen by Mab.

Totaly agree.  My arguement is that somebody made the deal with Mab much earlier, before Mab began to realize the Outsiders were making a major play.   Because this agreement existed, the Black council KNEW that they could attack Mab in her place of power and not be destroyed by Mab.    I would argue that Mab has been trapped in this way since she first began to recuit Dresden due to all her talk about adoring freedom then.   


Quote
Nemesis hoped to capture Lea before she could tell Mab about Maeves infection. Mab feigned some weakness and send all her troops away and waited for the attack. Nemesis hoped with Maeves help to get in and take Lea away but failed because Mab was ready and Maeve was revealed anyway. Lea was the bait and Nemesis went for it.

No way to capture lea or attack Arctis Tor without negating Mab.   They fought Mab's guards outside the citadel --- it is not like they tried ot sneak in.   Which means they either wanted Mab go fight (suicidal in her place of power) or they were confident that Mab could not fight.   

Maeve might oppose Mab, but counting on Maeve to oppose Mab on your attack would have thrown away a secret and highly valuable asset (Maeve).  The Black council woudl never have done that withought great need.  And arguably, even if Maeve threw down with the black council folks, they still would have lost.   Mab would have destroyed Maeve and created a new Winter lady who was not infected.     yes we know now Mab was paralyzed by her love of her daughter, but I doubt anybody else knew this at the time of PG

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #173 on: February 24, 2015, 08:47:51 PM »
This part doesn't track with what we've seen. Mab would never make a bargain with an invading enemy at the heart of her power to go away. To do so would be to indicate weakness, and Mab never shows weakness. I get how you are tying her inaction into a larger plan, but Mab's larger plans always have her dealing from a position of strength. If Thorned Namshiel and his forces had invaded Winter, won their way to the gates of Arctis Tor itself, and Mab says "If you go away and not attack me any longer, I'll give you _____ ", then it would appear to one and all that Mab was unable to defeat TN's forces in the middle of her domain. Regardless of whether it was part of a larger plan or not, that sort of show of weakness would never happen by Mab.

I can maybe just about believe that kind of argument as plausible to Harry, when he brings it up about why to keep fighting the Red Court.  It's still wrong but I can believe he believes it.

Mab, otoh, doesn't work for me at all.

There's something fundamentally Chaotic, to my mind, about this whole "worried about appearing weak" thing.  It presupposes that other entities' short-term opinions of you are widely variable, and that they will act based on those short-term opinions; that it doesn't matter if you've been visibly strong for a thousand years, an afternoon of not looking strong is a risk.  It presupposes that if someone does you an injury, you do better to go way over the top in retaliation and frighten them off, rather than respond proportionally and treat them as a rational actor who will accept a fair exchange.

Mab is the essence of Lawful.  Faerie are bound to equal exchange, the entire supernatural legal system in the DV is something of which Mab claims personal ownership.  That's a perspective that focuses on the long view, on understanding that if you can win against a given opponent 99.9% of the time, them getting lucky enough to end up in the 0.1% today doesn't make a blind bit of difference to what they can plausibly achieve against you tomorrow and the odds overwhelmingly favour them failing miserably if they try.

So I don't read Mab as giving a bent penny over anyone stupid enough to think "she bargained with an enemy under duress" means "now she's weak"  because she's no less an archangel-level hitter for the sake of one specific circumstance, and the enemy who came out ahead is going to lose longer term, and anyone with any sense knows this.  Why should she worry about people having opinions of her that are wrong ? She knows who and what she is.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline forumghost

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2729
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #174 on: February 24, 2015, 09:30:25 PM »
"Terrible pride in that creature. She'll never bend it."

Mab won't permit herself to appear weak to anyone, because her Ego is roughly the size of her Army.

Offline Zizzle

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 797
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #175 on: February 24, 2015, 11:12:51 PM »
Quote
I'm looking for theories on Who attacked Arctis Tor , and specifically What was their Motivation?

Who -
The Carebears.

Why -
Because Mab wasn't loving enough...

What was their motivation? -
To break into the fairy network, stealing top information about the care share ray. Which Mab had been working on; to steal the feelings of all the worlds children.

What did they use? -
Hellfire, because Carebear's are generals of Lucifer. EVILbears... telling me how to feel, then using magic to change how I feel. EVIL, I tells ya.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #176 on: February 25, 2015, 03:30:48 PM »
"Terrible pride in that creature. She'll never bend it."
Mab won't permit herself to appear weak to anyone, because her Ego is roughly the size of her Army.

See, I read that as never bending to care what anyone else thinks.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline ebliss1

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1415
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #177 on: February 25, 2015, 05:37:40 PM »
Mab doesn't "personally" care how people view her and her relative strength. She cares about it "professionally".

As the leader of Winter, the arbiter of the Accords, a literal force of nature unto herself, who has her entire Court in fear of her wrath if they step even the tiniest toe out of line: witness a single drop of blood on the floor drawing her up from her throne while the entire Court froze in place at the sure knowledge that this tiny transgression would bring swift and deadly retribution. With a single word she demanded her Knight freeze/shatter the bleeder. She didn't need to explain what was happening or her wishes. Everyone there KNEW that with Mab, the consequences are instantly lethal. And then she approved of her Knight freeze/shattering a court noble just to prove how powerful he was in Mab's service, and everyone would be reminded that Mab's right hand was going to be just as lethal.

These are not the actions of a monarch who is content to follow a path of "don't sweat the small stuff". If she is known for following up seemingly minor points of etiquette in her Court with instant lethality, there is no way whatsoever that she would allow herself to be seen as unwilling or unable to defeat an attack against her stronghold.

From a simply logical standpoint, if enemies of Mab are shown that they can attack Arctis Tor, and doing so can allow them to walk away, with something for their efforts in the form of whatever bargain was struck to entice them to walk away, then the attacks will occur more readily. She doesn't have time for such nonsense, so its better, logically, to act in such a way whenever an attack comes, that future attackers are given pause before attempting to do so. And Mab is all about logic. She's not about to act in such a way that more attacks will come, or that attackers who walk away after a bargain can take knowledge of her defenses and tactics away with them for further study. That would be akin to giving away information, and Mab gives nothing away.



« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:41:54 PM by ebliss1 »
Making a Better World Whether You Like it or Not

Offline forumghost

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2729
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #178 on: February 25, 2015, 09:03:24 PM »
See, I read that as never bending to care what anyone else thinks.

Even though the context of the scene is Kringle warning she'd have killed Harry if anyone had seen him challenge her? And it was a warning that he should never challenge her pride?

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2015, 03:13:00 AM »
Even though the context of the scene is Kringle warning she'd have killed Harry if anyone had seen him challenge her? And it was a warning that he should never challenge her pride?

Even so. Kringle is a trickster deity in disguise, remember ?
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.