Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why

[Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad]

But technically isn't Mavra a demon with free will?  Maybe after Dresden threatened her she was willing to make them an offer.  A merger.  "I help you with your goals, you help me with mine, then we go our separate ways." or something like that.

Hmm...when a human is killed by a Black Court Vampire, does his/her soul depart?  My guess would be yes, as our souls depart when we die--or, according to my faith, the connection (i.e. will) between our souls and bodies is severed, such that we remain aware of our surroundings but can no longer respond to them physically through our bodies.

Mavra was originally human.  Is her rotting corpse now inhabited by her shade?  She's dead, after all.  Can a human shade pick up a coin and receive a Fallen?

You've broached a really intriguing subject, Groinkick--I suggest you start a topic thread on it.

[Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad]

I don't think the Denarians have anything she wants. Mavra is all about Mavra, and with the Darkhallow ritual at her fingertips i'm sure she has much bigger plans. A Fallen would just get in her way.

I got the impression that Mavra wanted Kemmler's book so it couldn't be used against her and her kind, not that she had delusions of god-hood.

[Eldest Gruff]

I got the impression that Mavra wanted Kemmler's book so it couldn't be used against her and her kind, not that she had delusions of god-hood.

Idk, the Word of Kemmler is kind of a non-threat to her and her people, who's gonna attain god-hood and go aiming for the scraps of the Black Court? I actually thing she wanted it for someone else entirely.

[Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad]

Idk, the Word of Kemmler is kind of a non-threat to her and her people, who's gonna attain god-hood and go aiming for the scraps of the Black Court? I actually thing she wanted it for someone else entirely.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure there's either brief mention in DB text or a WoJ that she wanted the book because it could be used by necromancers to threaten the Black Court.  Anyone with a reasonably intact memory care to take a swing at this?

[Acalanthis]

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure there's either brief mention in DB text or a WoJ that she wanted the book because it could be used by necromancers to threaten the Black Court.  Anyone with a reasonably intact memory care to take a swing at this?

Well, Harry's threat to her at the end of Dead Beat certainly seems to suggest that Mavra believes that necromancy can be turned against blampires like herself, and that the Word of Kemmler specifically contained that information.

[groinkick]

Hmm...when a human is killed by a Black Court Vampire, does his/her soul depart?  My guess would be yes, as our souls depart when we die--or, according to my faith, the connection (i.e. will) between our souls and bodies is severed, such that we remain aware of our surroundings but can no longer respond to them physically through our bodies.

Mavra was originally human.  Is her rotting corpse now inhabited by her shade?  She's dead, after all.  Can a human shade pick up a coin and receive a Fallen?

You've broached a really intriguing subject, Groinkick--I suggest you start a topic thread on it.

Thank you very much.  Is it her shade that possesses her body?  I had assumed that the demon had taken over her corpse.  Like the demon's that are within the White Court, or the demons the Red Court transform into.  I just thought the Black Court demons reanimated the corpse, and maybe retained memory's or shade of the corps?

[Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad]

Well, Harry's threat to her at the end of Dead Beat certainly seems to suggest that Mavra believes that necromancy can be turned against blampires like herself, and that the Word of Kemmler specifically contained that information.

Yayus.  Think there was other mention of this as well.

[Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad]

Thank you very much.  Is it her shade that possesses her body?  I had assumed that the demon had taken over her corpse.  Like the demon's that are within the White Court, or the demons the Red Court transform into.  I just thought the Black Court demons reanimated the corpse, and maybe retained memory's or shade of the corps?

Hmm...good points.  Could they animate it by binding its shade inside it, thus artificially re-establishing a connection between will and dead flesh?  that sounds real close to necromancy.  Perhaps this is why new vampires fumble around so much, and why the older a BC vampire is the more powerful it gets, i.e. through a strengthening of the connection, as in the more ancient spirits resurrected in DB being the most powerful. This could be why Mavra was so anxious to get hold of the Word of Kemmler--perhaps both to protect the Black Court from being enslaved by necromancers such as Cowl and/or Corpsetaker and to accelerate the development of powerful vampires and rebuild her Court.

Also, I have read accounts of vampires of the Stoker variety being referred to as "blood-sucking ghosts."  I think we're on to something here. 

[Arjan]

Yayus.  Think there was other mention of this as well.

There was a big discussion about it on this forum as well. It is about this quote from dead beat:

"I've got a fallen angel tripping all over herself to give me more power. Queen Mab has asked me to take the mantle of Winter Knight twice now. I've read Kemmler's book. I know how the Darkhallow works. And I know how to turn necromancy against the Black Court."

woj is that Harry was not bluffing. My interpretation of this quote is that Harry made every new threat bigger than the previous one and the last one is the scariest one for Mavra.

And he got that knowledge from Kemmlers book.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26717.msg1138970.html#msg1138970

[KurtinStGeorge]

To get back to the OP, I think that while the Outsiders, Nemesis, or its agents might have long-term goals, like world domination, it's short-term strategies may change as events unfold. 

For example, it appears Cowl made a deal with the Red Court to destroy the Senior Council for them.  When that plan failed, it's possible the Outsiders or there allies decided it wouldn't be a bad thing for the Red Court to get hit by both Fairy Courts in order to wear the Red Court down, and make the Reds more dependent than ever on Outsider support.   

Mab could have had more than one reason for holding almost all of her forces on the border with Summer.  First, she would have wanted to keep the way to Arctis Tor mostly clear for the time when she would bring Harry Dresden to Arctis Tor to rescue Molly.  Remember, there is evidence that the events at Splattercon!!! were planned about a year before the convention opened. 

A second reason for Mab's behavior is more speculative.  Mab may have not wanted the Red Court to get hammered by both the Summer and Winter Courts.  She might have calculated that if both Summer and Winter attacked the Red Court, and the White Council later recovered enough strength to add its own weight to such attacks, the Reds might decide to sue for peace.  I think that is something Mab would not have wanted to occur.  I think Mab wanted revenge against the Red Court to come in a time and place of her own choosing way and she wanted her victory to be complete.  Holding her forces at Summer's border ensured the Red Court would continue with its ruinous war. 

[dspringer1]

Five questions need answers before you can understand the attack on Arctis Tor
•   Why did Mab prohibit Winter from going to war with the Red Court when they attacked through winter lands in Dead Beat?
•   Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
•   Who attacked Arctis Tor?
•   Why attack Arctis Tor?
•   What did Harry have to do with the above?

I see the first and second question as related.   My best guess is that someone on the Black Council was owed a major debt by Mab.  They used that debt to prohibit Mab from attacking or directly opposing their interests.   If worded correctly, this would both force Mab to not respond to the provocation and also prevent her from destroying whoever attacked her base.   This bargain would also explain why anybody would be so stupid as to provoke Winter to enter the war.  If they knew that Winter could not enter the war, then the “stupid” act was actually a brilliant stratagem allowing the Red Court/Black Council to set the Council up for a very nasty fall.   

As to who attacked Arctis Tor, I have no idea of specifics other than it would have to include a Denarian (likely Thorned Namshiel) and would have to include whoever made the bargain with Mab, presumably Cowl.   

The last question is still a bit of a mystery to me.   The most likely reason I can think of is that the Black Council was trying to kill Mab herself, counting on the bargain to prevent her from defending herself.   They did not count on Mab simply hiding.   This would make a lot of sense if Maeve was already infected and this fact known to the Outsiders, even if Maeve herself was not working with the Council. 

Notice, none of the above attributes Mab with planning the death of her guards (which would be against her obligations as their liege), nor does it mandate that Mab sent the Scarecrows.  The guards would have died to give Mab time to hide effectively.   

Nothing about the above has anything to do with Harry at all.  It is much more likely in my mind that Harry’s involvement was due to Maeve’s planning.  She needed a way to get Lily to trust her and this plan with Harry enabled that.  Maeve ordered the scarecrows into action and Maeve made sure Harry would be involved.   

Yes Maeve was infected, but I doubt she was consciously allied with the Black Council at this stage and instead was pursuing her own interests.   

[Carl]

IMO Wnter stayed out of the war because Maeve was out of the game. I dug up a bunch of info on celtic lore a little while ago and based on that, (it really all lines up very neatly with what we know of the queens allready, although the idea that they might have acquired some hellish mantles at some point is worrisome, but that's a bit more speculative), Maeve would be the one who should have done the smacking around. Sure Mab could have done it but that isn't really whether power is about and she probably has a lot of annoying limitations making it harder than it should be, and she has a lot fo other responsibilities she may not be able to ignore for long enough. Not to mention it would have clearly stated Maeve wasn't doing her job to anyone with more than Harry's level of knowledge of the courts which would be baaaad.

[namkcas]

•   Why did Mab prohibit Winter from going to war with the Red Court when they attacked through winter lands in Dead Beat?
Mab found out that Lea was infected but concluded she was not the only creature that was a problem in the Winter Court.  She was concerned that with the imbalance of power between Summer and Winter that she needed to be extra careful.  On top of that, she was concerned that Summer might be compromised as well.
•   Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
Again, this is a plot understand who was under the influence of Nemesis.
•   Who attacked Arctis Tor?
The Outsider backed forces.
•   Why attack Arctis Tor?
To try to get Molly and prevent Mab from showing Lea to Harry.
•   What did Harry have to do with the above?
This is the first time that he was shown somebody that was infected in an obvious manner.  He had met infected Maeve but even Mab was not sure at that point.

[dspringer1]

IMO Wnter stayed out of the war because Maeve was out of the game. I dug up a bunch of info on celtic lore a little while ago and based on that, (it really all lines up very neatly with what we know of the queens allready, although the idea that they might have acquired some hellish mantles at some point is worrisome, but that's a bit more speculative), Maeve would be the one who should have done the smacking around. Sure Mab could have done it but that isn't really whether power is about and she probably has a lot of annoying limitations making it harder than it should be, and she has a lot fo other responsibilities she may not be able to ignore for long enough. Not to mention it would have clearly stated Maeve wasn't doing her job to anyone with more than Harry's level of knowledge of the courts which would be baaaad.

Mab could have supported the war pretty easily and it woudl have been pretty devistating to the Red Court even if Mab and Maeve never got involved themselves.   Harry was pretty clear.  If Winter and Summer got involved, it was suicide for the Red Courts. There are a lot of very powerful fey that would have a ball killing Red Court Vampires anytime they went anywhere near the never-never.   

The first indication that Mab knew about Maeve was small favor, which is after these events.   Does not mean she did not suspect Maeve earlier, but your argument still seems a stretch. 

Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
Again, this is a plot understand who was under the influence of Nemesis.

Not following this.  Allowing an attack on Arctis tor is accepting a huge insult and a direct challange to Mab's authority and thus her power.   She might do it to find out who is infected, but you need to explain how allowing outsiders to attack her home helps her identify infected fey.   There does not seem to be an obvious connection to support this claim.    In fact, the opposite would be true.  Capture the intruders, torture them for information and see who among her people tries to free/kill them.  Much better strategy to find infected individuals.   

[namkcas]

dspringer1,

The whole plot of PG is Mab trying to uncover a traitor.  If she crushes the plot, the traitor's plot does not advance.  If the plot does not advance, then the traitor is not uncovered.