Poll

Who attacked Arctis Tor?  What was their motivation?  

The Circle
11 (21.2%)
The Outsiders/Nemesis (formerly known as the Black Council)
31 (59.6%)
The Red Court
0 (0%)
The Fomor
2 (3.8%)
A faction attacking while Maeve was in charge, so that she could sabotage the defenses
8 (15.4%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why  (Read 84913 times)

Offline Carl

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2015, 04:13:20 AM »
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And I don't much see why in your mind dropping a Lady in there is conducive to anything. So great they throw around a ton of power and pyramids go down. Eb and Harry could have done that too, hell so could Odin...but clearly that would have just made the battle chaos worse and not in an effective way like Molly's one woman rave technique. If it was a simple matter of just brute force being necessary then they would have done it. As it stands they still had to rescue Maggie so a Lady blowing up everything in sight does nothing.

You are also supposing Lea did nothing BECAUSE of the lack of I guess firepower in your mind which is he only thing that constitutes a contribution. I think also because you don't view the Lords of the Outer Night as anything all that tough even though they clearly were...hell if Lea's ONLY contribution was 'Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night' that would have been of great help considering how strong they are...but she also did all those other things.

So fine the ramps are squishy...they had almost the entire army there! You mean to tell me that one Lady just makes them all insignificant? I think in the same way you see me overestimating Lea I think you are doing much the same with Lily or the ladies in general.

Several points to address.

1. No Harry and Eb cant do that, we've certainly seen Harry hit his limit well before the point of the fire wall Lilly threw out and whilst we don't have quite as clear a demonstration for Eb, but given we've never seen or heard of him doing anything like that without opportunity to pull a ritual i'm going to go with no he can't either. The closest we've seen was Harry tapping the Ley line earlier

They could certainly do some very big spells i'm sure that's true, but the really big stuff seriously drains them, they can't do a lot of it or at that kind of scale, not without prep time, Lily didn't even feel throwing her big spell around. And that wall of fire was hundreds of feet long and hot enough that Harry had serous issues blocking it even with winter backup. I can give the top handful of Ramps 1 step below the LotON, (like Adrienne) an "okay lets say they survive it due to foci benefits" pass since that seems to be "Harry Tier". But the rest are dead, deader, and even deader. Based on what it did to Fitz sword they won't even leave corpses.

2. Odin is a fairer point to raise, but the very fact that we never see him throwing around really big magical stuff, (the biggest thing he's done to date is the time trick in CD, and we don't really know how hard that is from a power PoV, it may well), makes it hard to judge his power. But given the lack of fireworks at CI i'm going with no he can't.

3. I understand the point about nuking not being useful at points in the battle. But that's why i picked the two examples i did. Immediately after Lea throws down the gem most of the ramps are still on the stands racing to get down, if she had that kind of power she could cut loose kill several percent of the total RC forces at the battle and have no friendly fire worries. And it's a level of blasting we know a lady can do. The second, when they're making their way to the pyramid base again includes a situation with no friendly fire potential, and againn included large numbers of Ramps tightly packed. Perfect area spell bait for someone who can hit an area that huge.

4. You still don't seem to get my point about the LotON. Hit the Merlin in the back with a very low power fireball when he doesn't know your going to attack him and he dies. Period. Doesn't matter that he's probably the most powerful mortal wizard alive, he's just as dead. Adrienne shows the same kind of "can't defend against what she doesn't see coming" problem in her duel with Harry. I'm sure a LotON is tougher even than a normal ramp physically. But their still going to go down if you hit them hard enough and anyone warden level or above can throw out spells many orders of magnitude above that required to kill a normal Ramp, so a group of LotOK? Not a challenge. IF you can catch the unawares as Lea did so they don't get to use all that awesome magical might to do anything about you smacking them down.

5. No i'm not judging Lea on her inability to nuke. I'm judging her on her inability to decisively effect the outcome of the battle once it's in progress through direct applied magic. Nuking is certainly the simplest and easiest method of doing that. But anything that akllows you to take large numbers of enemies out of the fight with very little effort will do.

Drop a Lady in lea's place and whilst saving Maggie is still not certain, (the battle will take time no mater what and thee are so many factors in play it's hard to predict specifics), the actual outcome of the battle, (the complete destruction of the RC), would have been assured. Don't get me wrong without the grey Council backing her up a Lady would have a serious time against the combined might of the 12 LotON and if you throw in the Red King i wouldn't want any Lady to try it without a bag full of Names. But with the mortal and birdman backup, no i don't think the RC could have survived the battle.

Lea never even comes close to demonstrating the kind of battle swinging power necessary to guarantee win that fight without using the ritual. A Lady given what we see could just by following harry around wipe out a goodly percentage of the RC's strength and given sufficient extra time, (how much depending on how much friendly fire she has to worry about), clean house with the whole lot of them.

That said i still ate Lea at a minimum equivalent to a LotON , i just don't think she compares with the Ladies.

6. I wouldn't say a Lady makes it insignificant, but depending on weather the ones in the stadium where there when harry reached the pyramid or came from the pyramid wiping them out wold take out anything from several percent, to potentially in excess of 10% of the total strength there. Throw in another swing whilst running to the pyramid afterwards and it's say anywhere from 10-20% of the total forces in 3 swings is doable. anything more than that comes down to having a sufficiently clear set of targets.

Based on the description of the setup at the pyramid when they first get there and the dimensions of the pyramid 4 swings would have wiped out >80% of the court in one go, (anywhere from 10,000-40,000 ramps depending on how you interpret some of Harry's descriptive text off the top of my head). Now i'm not suggesting that would have been the ideal thing to do. But it gives you an idea of what a Lady could do if they gave her a nice target, (and as noted we have a minimum 3 instances of such nice targets in the battle).
Possibly Ivy and Molly's biggest fan, i'm too chivalrous and kind for my own damm good. A bit like a certain Wizard we all know :).

Molly should get this shirt.

Offline namkcas

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #106 on: February 18, 2015, 05:28:01 AM »
Okay here we go...my theory of why Mab kidnaps Molly leading to who attacks Arctis Tor and why...

Let's start with the notion of why kidnap Molly if it is Mab.  Mab has at least 3 purposes:

- Show Lloyd Slate to Harry to try to entice him to take up the Winter Mantle as a Mercy
- Show Lea to get him to introduce him to Nemesis obliquely
- And most importantly get Nemesis to reveal traitors within the Winter Court (This is the primary Mission)

So, Molly is kidnapped to bring Harry to Arctis Tor to show him these things.  It all goes back to the attacks at Splattercon!!!  These attacks have to look natural as part of the workings of Mab.  She does not know who to trust so tells nobody about her plan.  That is why the attacks at Splattercon!!! are so violent.  Mab knows that this will draw Harry.  The fact that Molly involves Harry first is a bonus, not part of the plan.  Magical beings killing people in Chicago means Harry is showing up.  This is the inducement to attach Harry to this program.  Now, you need to recall that according to our timelines there are about 4 years between SK and PG.  That means there is plenty of time to keep tabs on Harry and learn about Molly's magic.  I think this plan is long in coming because Madrigal Raith was part of Splattercon!!!'s agenda for about 1 year.  This timeline and the knowledge of Molly's Magic gives Mab time to prepare.

Molly is taken and brought to Arctis Tor.  Now, remember right after that Harry is attacked by the Scarecrow.  The attack occurs AFTER Harry gets out of Splattercon!!! having beaten the one Fetch that stayed at the event.  The other Fetches (including the Scarecrow) are part of the kidnapping.  But then the Scarecrow attacks Harry.  The reason for this is to keep Harry out of events as they progress and reveals the Scarecrow as an agent of Nemesis potentially unwittingly (will come to this at the end).

Once Harry is free, the forces of Nemesis realize that Harry is going to get to AT to rescue Molly.  So, they attack AT with a LOT.  In PG, it says that the Winter Defenders were killed by Fire done with such power that Harry could not have done it.  So maybe Namschiel, but maybe more - a lot more.  Mab lets them win through, and I propose this as a test to Harry.  The bulk of the Nemesis backing force goes away (probably because they believe they are no longer needed here - maybe help the Red Court?).  Given the small size of Harry's force, nobody sees the need for a big group to kill him. 

Harry wins through killing the Scarecrow which scatters the rest of the Fetches (who probably get commanded to run away by Mab once the Scarecrow is dead).

A whole LOT of things come from this that are less obvious:  Harry has his first talk with Eb about the Black Council near the end and will eventually see that Fae - including a very senior one like Lea can be affected.

The biggie for this is Mab finds out that Maeve is a traitor.  I am not clear if this comes from her meeting with Lily and Harry at Macs OR by giving orders to the Scarecrow to kill Harry (this is my indirect theory on why the Scarecrow attacked Harry).  2 books later in Small Favor if you recall Mab is no longer able to speak without hurting people.  We find out later this is because she has uncovered Maeve and infected by Nemesis.  It is these events that cause Mab to find out that Maeve is infected.

So, again why does Mab do things this way?  The whole method is to look like something Mab would do or what people think Mab would do.  No place in the novel does anyone doubt that Mab could be behind the kidnapping and murders.  She needed to bring in a force she thinks she can trust to force the hand of Nemesis - namely Harry.  She uses Rashid as a messanger as she sees him as trustworthy as well.  The entire way of getting Harry to AT involves beings outside of Faerie.  Think about it, outside of battle and talks with the Summer/Winter Ladies and Summer Knight there are no Faeries in this conversation.  This is a dangerous plan for all involved, but that never bothers Mab.

In many ways, this means that there are echoes that come from this attack through Changes, CD and even SG.

Offline raidem

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #107 on: February 18, 2015, 09:59:12 PM »
Assume Murphy is a MAB construct.  Or that she was/is/will be MAB.

We got Gatekeeper warning Harry about black magic.

Quote
Dresden,
In the past ten days there have been repeated acts of black magic in Chicago. As the senior Warden in the region, it falls to you to investigate and find those responsible. In my opinion, it is vital that you do so immediately. To my knowledge, no one else is aware of the situation.
Rashid

We got someone who tried to take out Harry in an attack of opportunity.  AKA Chrysler hit Harry.

We get Grayson who calls in Murphy.
Quote
Grayson let out a wry chuckle. “I need to fill out some papers. You okay to help me fill in the blanks?”
“Sure,” I told him.
“Thanks for the call, Sergeant,” Murphy said.
“De nada,” Grayson replied, touching the brim of his cap with a finger. “I’ll get those forms, Dresden, soon as the wrecker gets here.”

Quote
She reached out and twitched a stray bit of hair from my forehead. “You’re a great big girl, Dresden. One little fender bender and you go all emotional and pathetic.” Her eyes flickered to the Beetle again, and suddenly burned with a cold blue fire. “Do you know who did this to you?”
“Not yet,” I growled as the wrecker arrived. “But you can bet your ass I’m going to find out.

Murphy is informed that something kinky is going on via Gatekeeper.
Quote
“I understand.” I looked around for a change of subject. “So. There’s black magic afoot in Chicago, according to an annoyingly vague letter from the Gatekeeper.”
“Who is he?”
“Wizard. Way mysterious.”
“You believe him?”
“Yeah,” I said. “So we should be on the lookout for killings and strange incidents and so on. The usual.”
“Right,” Murphy said. “I’ll keep an eye out for corpses, weirdos, and monsters.”
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 01:25:43 AM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2015, 10:29:58 PM »
Assume Murphy is a MAB construct.  Or that she was/is/will be MAB.

We got Gatekeeper warning Harry about black magic.

We got someone who tried to take out Harry in an attack of opportunity.  AKA Chrysler hit Harry.

We get Grayson who calls in Murphy.
Murphy is informed that something kinky is going on via Gatekeeper.

(AHEM), dude, I'm turning in my notice as an infected minion.

I've nearly completed my Rite of Ascension based on getting 100,000 people to laugh while drinking beverages, thus causing them to back up into their noses.  The signs of my elevation to a super bad-a$$ ambulatory thunderstorm with incomparable magical power will be:

(1) Transformation of Miley Cyrus into a bullfrog tadpole (the Laws will no longer apply to me and besides, no one will notice the difference)
(2) April first will henceforth be remembered as the day of the Million Tyrannosaur March
(3) It'll go downhill from there

You have been warned.

Oh yeah, almost forgot--the question of "Who attacked Arctis Tor" will become irrelevant because it will be superseded by the question of "Who will attack Arctis Tor?"  That would be ME.  That is all.
Come not between the Nazgul and his prey, or he will not slay thee in thy turn.  He will bear thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all Darkness, where thy living flesh shall be devoured and thy shriveled mind left naked before the Lidless Eye.

Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2015, 10:41:52 PM »
(AHEM), dude, I'm turning in my notice as an infected minion.

I've nearly completed my Rite of Ascension based on getting 100,000 people to laugh while drinking beverages, thus causing them to back up into their noses.  The signs of my elevation to a super bad-a$$ ambulatory thunderstorm with incomparable magical power will be:

(1) Transformation of Miley Cyrus into a bullfrog tadpole (the Laws will no longer apply to me and besides, no one will notice the difference)
(2) April first will henceforth be remembered as the day of the Million Tyrannosaur March
(3) It'll go downhill from there

You have been warned.

Oh yeah, almost forgot--the question of "Who attacked Arctis Tor" will become irrelevant because it will be superseded by the question of "Who will attack Arctis Tor?"  That would be ME.  That is all.

100,000 seems like a bit of an overestimation. I count thus far...one  8)
"Home is where, when you go there and tell people to get out, they have to leave." DDS

Offline Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2015, 11:08:45 PM »
100,000 seems like a bit of an overestimation. I count thus far...one  8)

That's just because my mysterious Jedi powers keep you from seeing the other 99,000...
Come not between the Nazgul and his prey, or he will not slay thee in thy turn.  He will bear thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all Darkness, where thy living flesh shall be devoured and thy shriveled mind left naked before the Lidless Eye.

Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2015, 11:14:18 PM »
That's just because my mysterious Jedi powers keep you from seeing the other 99,000...

Still leaves you 999 short.
"Home is where, when you go there and tell people to get out, they have to leave." DDS

Offline Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #112 on: February 19, 2015, 11:19:35 PM »
Still leaves you 999 short.

Wayulll...hadn't said I'd completed it, had I?  Proof of this is that your head is not on fire.
Come not between the Nazgul and his prey, or he will not slay thee in thy turn.  He will bear thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all Darkness, where thy living flesh shall be devoured and thy shriveled mind left naked before the Lidless Eye.

Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2015, 11:25:20 PM »
Wayulll...hadn't said I'd completed it, had I?  Proof of this is that your head is not on fire.

Could be the ice bucket I wear to keep cool just as easily
"Home is where, when you go there and tell people to get out, they have to leave." DDS

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2015, 11:31:56 PM »
Wait, is that 100,000 people, or 50,000 each of IN people and OUT people?

Offline Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2015, 11:38:51 PM »
Could be the ice bucket I wear to keep cool just as easily

Ah.  Well, I guess that's OK.  Just don't let it happen again.
Come not between the Nazgul and his prey, or he will not slay thee in thy turn.  He will bear thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all Darkness, where thy living flesh shall be devoured and thy shriveled mind left naked before the Lidless Eye.

Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2015, 11:40:01 PM »
Wait, is that 100,000 people, or 50,000 each of IN people and OUT people?

"Home is where, when you go there and tell people to get out, they have to leave." DDS

Offline Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2015, 11:40:13 PM »
Wait, is that 100,000 people, or 50,000 each of IN people and OUT people?

I'm no longer an infected minion, so I can't tell you.

And I don't have any more ice.  Eldest Gruff took the bucket.  Tell him to give it back to Lea when he's done with it.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 11:42:09 PM by Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad »
Come not between the Nazgul and his prey, or he will not slay thee in thy turn.  He will bear thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all Darkness, where thy living flesh shall be devoured and thy shriveled mind left naked before the Lidless Eye.

Offline Eldest Gruff

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2015, 11:52:13 PM »
I'm no longer an infected minion, so I can't tell you.

And I don't have any more ice.  Eldest Gruff took the bucket.  Tell him to give it back to Lea when he's done with it.

This is MY bucket. There are many like it but this one is MINE.
"Home is where, when you go there and tell people to get out, they have to leave." DDS

Offline Al-Hajj Bilal Ammar Jihad

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #119 on: February 20, 2015, 01:10:12 AM »
This is MY bucket. There are many like it but this one is MINE.

Yes.  But the real question is...is that your pizza?  And do you have to eat it cold?
Come not between the Nazgul and his prey, or he will not slay thee in thy turn.  He will bear thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all Darkness, where thy living flesh shall be devoured and thy shriveled mind left naked before the Lidless Eye.