Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why

[Eldest Gruff]

I didn't mean it was a compromise.  I meant the attack all along wasn't meant to be a victory for the bad guys.  The intent was to force Mab into a type of deal.

If the enemy had enough power to force her into a deal then why not just eliminate her entirely? I mean Mab is until Harry harnesses his 'starborn-ness' THE main force keeping the Outsider's at bay and thwarting the plans of the enemies in this world. So if that force was powerful enough to compel her to make a deal, then that was immensely short-sighted on their part when they could have just eliminated or weakened her.

And considering there are only a handful of beings that could do that, it seems unlikely.

[groinkick]

If the enemy had enough power to force her into a deal then why not just eliminate her entirely? I mean Mab is until Harry harnesses his 'starborn-ness' THE main force keeping the Outsider's at bay and thwarting the plans of the enemies in this world. So if that force was powerful enough to compel her to make a deal, then that was immensely short-sighted on their part when they could have just eliminated or weakened her.

And considering there are only a handful of beings that could do that, it seems unlikely.

There is a big difference attacking Arctis Tor, and taking on hundreds of millions of Fae many of which are watching the Outer Gates...  The ones attacking may have needed her to do something that she could do, but they couldn't.  Just because someone wanted something from her doesn't mean they wanted her to be defeated, and allowing the Outsiders to break through.

[forumghost]

Alternatively they could have wanted her to not do something. Not even Mab can be everywhere after all.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

If you are referring to Maeve and Lily as I assume you are, that is a very abnormal circumstance. Maeve is infected and Lily is lonely/impressionable and overall too willing to 'do good' for her own good. Summer and Winter are diametrically opposed at all other times, its why every time Mab chose Harry as representative or emissary before he became the Knight, Summer was there to oppose him in some way.

In SK, the net result overall is to remove a dangerously errant Summer Lady and restore the balance.

In SmF, the net result is to keep the Archive from falling to the Denarians, which benefits both courts.  And Mab makes it clear to Harry that Summer's forces opposing him are not there to stop him but to compel him to be Winter's Emissary for this job when she can't (by her own given word in SK) do so herself.

Every other time Summer gets shafted, their Lady dies TWICE, their Knight once and the new one gets his ass handed to him.

Their Knight is killed by their own rogue Lady.  And killing rogue ladies is not a loss to the Court they belong to, that I can see; they get replaced.

The Gruffs are defeated and felled at every turn, the exception being Eldest who gets sent to be an errand boy...amusing thou he found it.

None of the gruffs up until Eldest are particularly plausible challenges for Harry, and Eldest basically slowly gives Harry hints until Harry figures out how to get out of the situation; this is not the action of an Eldest-level entity that wants Harry dead and is not an idiot.

Raith's protection isn't explicitly stated to be Outsider related, its just assumed at this point

Harry cites it as specifically feeling like the mordite he dealt with in DM.

But for Scarecrow, the reason his nature is different is because he holds the mantle of Eldest, just like Cat Sith, the oldest and most powerful of its kind.

Harry offers that as one possible theory alongside external corruption, and is not at all sure of it.

[raidem]

But for Scarecrow, the reason his nature is different is because he holds the mantle of Eldest, just like Cat Sith, the oldest and most powerful of its kind.

Harry offers that as one possible theory alongside external corruption, and is not at all sure of it.

I found one example of Harry's magic being effective until it wasn't on the same entity.
In DM, on encounter with Ursiel his magic was VERY effective.
Then, during the soulgaze, Ursiel says "GET OUT"
After that, Harry's magic doesn't work against him.
I think there is a change of state for Harry and that it is why his magic sometimes is very effective and other times not.

[Eldest Gruff]

In SK, the net result overall is to remove a dangerously errant Summer Lady and restore the balance.

In SmF, the net result is to keep the Archive from falling to the Denarians, which benefits both courts.  And Mab makes it clear to Harry that Summer's forces opposing him are not there to stop him but to compel him to be Winter's Emissary for this job when she can't (by her own given word in SK) do so herself.

Both of those results benefit the world in general so yes if you wish to attribute it to Summer and Winter both coming out equally I suppose technically you are correct. But originally you made it sound as if Mab's actions end up benefitting both Courts almost by design, I very much disagree with that notion.

Their Knight is killed by their own rogue Lady.  And killing rogue ladies is not a loss to the Court they belong to, that I can see; they get replaced.

It really doesn't matter HOW they get killed, they still died. Aurora is replaced by a totally inexperienced and unprepared Lily, who just a few short years later herself is led to her own downfall. And she was not Maeve, Aurora still fulfilled her role for all those centuries. Ronald Reul who would have been a match for just about any Winter Knight over that time period is replaced by another novice who takes several years to come into his own confidence and power, who lost pretty much all his friends and NOW has lost his lady and the woman he was probably in love with. Now they have another Lady who never wanted that kind of power, even if she was born to it and I happen to actually be of the mindset Sarissa will be good for both Summer and Titania in the long run...still doesn't change the fact that its going to be a rough transition for her.

But no matter that these roles get filled, it cannot be good for the stability of a powerful faction to keep rotating out all their experience from the most important positions every decade or so when an enemy like Nemesis is lurking. And clearly Aurora's death, while 'necessary', pretty much killed Titania's will. Harry goes to her and asks for help when he doesn't know whether to believe Mab or Maeve and she basically shrugs him off saying she no longer cares if the world dies, HER world died in her mind. What if Mab does for some reason get infected, who will protect humanity if not Titania when that's her whole purpose?

So yes, the Summer Court gets shafted a whole helluva lot and to me whatever slight benefits they may have gained are far outweighed by what they've lost in the past say 15 years...even more obvious when you see how much Winter has gained.

None of the gruffs up until Eldest are particularly plausible challenges for Harry, and Eldest basically slowly gives Harry hints until Harry figures out how to get out of the situation; this is not the action of an Eldest-level entity that wants Harry dead and is not an idiot.

Tiny gruff was more than a match for Harry but the Hobs helped get him out of that, the other hitters could have gotten him too if Thomas hadn't come along so lets not discount that they weren't a match for Harry, he was pretty well on the ropes.

Harry cites it as specifically feeling like the mordite he dealt with in DM.

Like I said, i'm fine with the belief that Raith is protected by Outsiders...but Harry's FEELING is not an explicit notion that it can only be Outsiders like you made it out to be.

Harry offers that as one possible theory alongside external corruption, and is not at all sure of it.

Not being sure doesn't preclude the option, just means there's still some information about it that needs to be resolved.

[Eldest Gruff]

There is a big difference attacking Arctis Tor, and taking on hundreds of millions of Fae many of which are watching the Outer Gates...  The ones attacking may have needed her to do something that she could do, but they couldn't.  Just because someone wanted something from her doesn't mean they wanted her to be defeated, and allowing the Outsiders to break through.

Standing troop count of 50,000 is still quite a lot to take on and seeing as how the majority of the Outsider's forces would ALSO be at the Gates, i'm not certain how that helps your case.

[Carl]

Lea is second only to Mab, (and I guess third overall but Mother Winter isn't really active in that sense), in overall strength AND has a strong personality that is all her own. Maeve WANTED the freedom that being infected provided her in her own mind so she was unwilling to fight it, in her mind it gave her exactly what she wanted. Cat Sith is an awfully prideful creature, even if he wasn't force taken almost right away he might not have gone to Mab like Lea did because it would be a stain on his reputation, something he might want to fight off himself. So he is both not strong enough, and not willful enough. My two cents anyway.

Lea may be second to Mab politically but i'm not convinced she is magically. A quick look at the wiki shows that, (depending on how exactly you interpret the CD text and weather the ramps around the pyramid moved to the ball court for the duel or not), anywhere from a couple to around a dozen uses of Lilly's CD fire wall attack would have cleaned out pretty much the entire red court at CI, (and it's not like Lilly showed any real drained effect from throwing that wall around or is especially well trained). Sure the Red king and the Lords of the Outer night if prepared for an attack, (unlike Lea's little gambit the cheeky madam), would be a real pain to put down. But all that chaff. Nah not even a challenge Lea's powerful magically, but not that powerful.

The other thing with the Lea, (and Eldest Gruff), situation politically speaking is we've only met them post SNAFU within their respective courts with one or more of their queens, so it's not clear if their power comes from them taking up the slack, or if they'd hold that much power normally. For that matter given the different duties to different queens thing we've head for the knight and "area's of responsibility" WoJ's it's not even clear how absolute the power structure is. It's quite possible that the ladies can give the queen's lieutenants orders under certain specific circumstances but are subject to their orders under other. Which would be just the kind of twisted, messed up, mind screwing situation the fae adore.

[Eldest Gruff]

Lea may be second to Mab politically but i'm not convinced she is magically. A quick look at the wiki shows that, (depending on how exactly you interpret the CD text and weather the ramps around the pyramid moved to the ball court for the duel or not), anywhere from a couple to around a dozen uses of Lilly's CD fire wall attack would have cleaned out pretty much the entire red court at CI, (and it's not like Lilly showed any real drained effect from throwing that wall around or is especially well trained). Sure the Red king and the Lords of the Outer night if prepared for an attack, (unlike Lea's little gambit the cheeky madam), would be a real pain to put down. But all that chaff. Nah not even a challenge Lea's powerful magically, but not that powerful.

The other thing with the Lea, (and Eldest Gruff), situation politically speaking is we've only met them post SNAFU within their respective courts with one or more of their queens, so it's not clear if their power comes from them taking up the slack, or if they'd hold that much power normally. For that matter given the different duties to different queens thing we've head for the knight and "area's of responsibility" WoJ's it's not even clear how absolute the power structure is. It's quite possible that the ladies can give the queen's lieutenants orders under certain specific circumstances but are subject to their orders under other. Which would be just the kind of twisted, messed up, mind screwing situation the fae adore.

I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote. And yes I agree Lily's attacks were very strong but she was also highly unstable/emotional at that point. I submit that Lea who was told to 'indulge herself' was more likely focused on inflicting 'pain' rather than really cutting loose at CI and she had to prepare the way for the Grey Council for the first part of the battle...she also had to contend with several of the Lords of Outer Night on her own which I think shows she is plenty powerful it just didn't make sense for her to go nuclear during that particular battle.

As for power structure if I had to guess Lea and Eldest seem to hold these roles of handmaiden and advisor, roles they have had for a long long time...in that while technically the Lady is next in line to become Queen, Lea for example is answerable only to Mab. Whether that means she controls more political power is debatable but I would guess that since when Mab steps out she is the one who fills in and NOT Maeve even before she became infected, I would think she has some pretty strong cache. Eldest seems more of a check on Lea power wise than politically...but hey maybe Eldest, who seems to be the first choice for ambassador of the Court, has similar political pop and it just has not been shown.

[raidem]

I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote.

[Carl]

I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote. And yes I agree Lily's attacks were very strong but she was also highly unstable/emotional at that point. I submit that Lea who was told to 'indulge herself' was more likely focused on inflicting 'pain' rather than really cutting loose at CI and she had to prepare the way for the Grey Council for the first part of the battle...she also had to contend with several of the Lords of Outer Night on her own which I think shows she is plenty powerful it just didn't make sense for her to go nuclear during that particular battle.

Your not wrong on that first sentence but it never specifies magical power. Political power, (which Lea certainly has as she IS Mab's current second in command per WoJ), would count too.

Also Lea was told to hurt yes. But she was also, (paraphrasing here as i can't remember exact quote), to "help as much as your power allows". Holding back really wouldn't qualify. And based on what we saw with Adrienne the fact that Lea took out a bunch of the Lords of the Outer Night isn't very impressive. Sure they're powerful, but Ramp's seem to work under the same "can't defend against what you don;t see coming" shtick human wizards have. They're not like some Fae who seem to have really solid defenses even if they don;t see it coming.

[Eldest Gruff]

Your not wrong on that first sentence but it never specifies magical power. Political power, (which Lea certainly has as she IS Mab's current second in command per WoJ), would count too.

Also Lea was told to hurt yes. But she was also, (paraphrasing here as i can't remember exact quote), to "help as much as your power allows". Holding back really wouldn't qualify. And based on what we saw with Adrienne the fact that Lea took out a bunch of the Lords of the Outer Night isn't very impressive. Sure they're powerful, but Ramp's seem to work under the same "can't defend against what you don;t see coming" shtick human wizards have. They're not like some Fae who seem to have really solid defenses even if they don;t see it coming.

I suppose not, thou I always interpreted it as magical...saying someone's power is second only to your own GENERALLY means magical I would think, iirc that part of the conversation did skew towards what Lea knew or could do in comparison to Mab so that's why I've always taken it as magical.

And Lea did help, she was told to indulge herself. But by the same token, wildly throwing around destructive magic when there were other preparations to make like preparing the way for the Grey Council or resisting the will of the Lords it would be a waste of her time and power to just sling around Lily sized firebolts at every foot soldier who crossed her, the whole point is that Lily was having a breakdown and acting unrestrained. Lea really had no cause or reason to do the same, a battle that large is chaotic enough and her task to 'help Harry' makes it not very conducive to letting loose fully.

They, (Lords), may not has 'seemed' like all that much but I feel that's probably more likely due to the fact that they really were not essential to the main point of the battle and so their power wasn't much expanded on. BUT if you take into consideration Odin's analysis that each of them were nearly as powerful as he especially since they were at the center of their power, it remains highly impressive for Lea to have taken on any of them.

[Carl]

Erm. I don;t get where your getting the idea that A) lea did much of anything at CI, (she didn't), or that B) such display's of power wouldn't have been useful, (they'd have ended the battle before it began).

Lea's contributions to the whole venture where as follows:

The transformation spell that got them there faster.

The Magical attire for Harry e.t.c.

The pre-prepared transport gem that let her carry Eb and co in unnoticed.

Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night.

Everything else was Harry and allies, and swords.

Conversely drop a lady in there and have her swing a Fire/ice wall like the one Lilly threw in CD right as the RC start attacking all out and one entire side of the stadium gets taken out, a handful of seconds later the other side joins them. Suddenly the handful that made it to the floor aside the only ramps in there are the Red King and the Lords of the Outer Knight. Lets not even get into how much more quickly it could have cleared the way to the pyramid. And that's assuming none of that force was made up of ramps from the ball court.

I also think you totally missed my point about how based on Adrienne Ramps are like Human's. Catch them unprepared and their squishy. Hitting a half a dozen Lords of the Outer Night and knocking them out when their defending from you is major. Doing it when they're totally unprepared and well, Ramirez with Molly veiling could have achieved the same effect.

[Eldest Gruff]

Erm. I don;t get where your getting the idea that A) lea did much of anything at CI, (she didn't), or that B) such display's of power wouldn't have been useful, (they'd have ended the battle before it began).

Lea's contributions to the whole venture where as follows:

The transformation spell that got them there faster.

The Magical attire for Harry e.t.c.

The pre-prepared transport gem that let her carry Eb and co in unnoticed.

Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night.

Everything else was Harry and allies, and swords.

Conversely drop a lady in there and have her swing a Fire/ice wall like the one Lilly threw in CD right as the RC start attacking all out and one entire side of the stadium gets taken out, a handful of seconds later the other side joins them. Suddenly the handful that made it to the floor aside the only ramps in there are the Red King and the Lords of the Outer Knight. Lets not even get into how much more quickly it could have cleared the way to the pyramid. And that's assuming none of that force was made up of ramps from the ball court.

I also think you totally missed my point about how based on Adrienne Ramps are like Human's. Catch them unprepared and their squishy. Hitting a half a dozen Lords of the Outer Night and knocking them out when their defending from you is major. Doing it when they're totally unprepared and well, Ramirez with Molly veiling could have achieved the same effect.

And I don't much see why in your mind dropping a Lady in there is conducive to anything. So great they throw around a ton of power and pyramids go down. Eb and Harry could have done that too, hell so could Odin...but clearly that would have just made the battle chaos worse and not in an effective way like Molly's one woman rave technique. If it was a simple matter of just brute force being necessary then they would have done it. As it stands they still had to rescue Maggie so a Lady blowing up everything in sight does nothing.

You are also supposing Lea did nothing BECAUSE of the lack of I guess firepower in your mind which is he only thing that constitutes a contribution. I think also because you don't view the Lords of the Outer Night as anything all that tough even though they clearly were...hell if Lea's ONLY contribution was 'Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night' that would have been of great help considering how strong they are...but she also did all those other things.

So fine the ramps are squishy...they had almost the entire army there! You mean to tell me that one Lady just makes them all insignificant? I think in the same way you see me overestimating Lea I think you are doing much the same with Lily or the ladies in general.

[namkcas]

So back to the primary topic of this thread, I just finished my re-read of PG.  Beyond the standard mysteries, I think I need to understand the Scarecrow a lot more.  He has 3 roles in the book:

1 - The first mention is when he attacks Harry et al after Harry has freed himself from Madrigal Raith.
2 - The second mention is the recount by Daniel in the attack on the Carpenter House (must have happened before the attack on Harry - but Harry is occupied at the time).
3 - The third mention is when he is found at the top of Arctus Tor and he battles with Harry/Charity.

Okay so here is the problem.  If we assume Mab sends the kidnapping fetches, then why attack Harry?  It looks from the outside that the primary purpose of the kidnapping is to draw Harry to Arctus Tor.  But if so, why not give Harry a clear path to AT?  Delaying tactic?  If we assume that Mab does not send the kidnapping fetches, then who do the fetches that attack Harry et al in AT belong to?  Why would they not go after one of Mab's enemies?  On top of that the Scarecrow declares itself loyal to Mab - not that this is definitive.  I think this is the crucible of the answer to what happened at AT.

One other problem with the attack on Harry.  Madrigal Raith says he was booked at Splattercon!!! for a year prior to the actual convention.  Harry concludes that Glau is attacked first to shut him up.  That would make Glau the reason that Madrigal gets booked at Splattercon!!!  So, why would Mab want Glau dead?  Mab seems to put many obstacles in the way of recovering Molly, but seems approving of his actual recovery. 

So, when I come up with a resolution for all this...I will post again.