Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why

[Silkki]

Except I think nemesis attacked to stop Lea from telling Mab about Maeves infection. Protecting that cover is the only reason for attacking arctis tor that makes sense to me.

For some reason Nemesis control of Lea was weakened and Lea ran to Mab, maybe Nemesis can control a limited number of people directly and it got overextended.

Or Lea's sense of self was just very strong, much stronger than Cat Sith.

Somehow it seems odd that Nemesis would arrange a huge attack on AT just to prevent a single message from reaching Mab. How would that even work? Lea standing outside AT and seeing massive army between her and the gate is unable to deliver a the information to Mab? Somehow that doesn't sound reasonable at all.

[Mira]

Except I think nemesis attacked to stop Lea from telling Mab about Maeves infection. Protecting that cover is the only reason for attacking arctis tor that makes sense to me.

For some reason Nemesis control of Lea was weakened and Lea ran to Mab, maybe Nemesis can control a limited number of people directly and it got overextended.

Or Lea's sense of self was just very strong, much stronger than Cat Sith.

I don't think so, I think Mab figured it out once she figured out that the knife was infected.  She treated Lea, and I believe treated herself as well, Maeve she couldn't do much about until she got a new Winter Knight.

[Silkki]

I don't think so, I think Mab figured it out once she figured out that the knife was infected.  She treated Lea, and I believe treated herself as well, Maeve she couldn't do much about until she got a new Winter Knight.

I think she could, just didn't want to. Maeve was her daughter after all.

Edit: Now that I think about it Lea infecting Maeve and then regretting it should fit the bill too. Then again I think it would fit quite nicely if Lea was atleat in part responsible for what happened  @ AT. And while Maeve could have been the one planning the attack on AT, I find it extremely unlikely Maeve wouldn't have taunted Mab about it during the confortation at the end of CD.

[Griffyn612]

Or Lea's sense of self was just very strong, much stronger than Cat Sith.

I don't know, Cat Sith was very defined as a personality.  The Sith infection is the oddest we've seen, to be honest. 

Anywho, there's got to be more to Lea's resistance than just being more aware.  Maybe Sith would have realized it himself given time, but Harry's blunt reveal caused Nemesis to take over.

[Arjan]

Somehow it seems odd that Nemesis would arrange a huge attack on AT just to prevent a single message from reaching Mab.

"Maeve is infected" extremely valuable information.

How would that even work? Lea standing outside AT and seeing massive army between her and the gate is unable to deliver a the information to Mab?

Lea inside and Nemesis trying to get her out before she loses control over Lea.

Somehow that doesn't sound reasonable at all.

Because Lea was infected.

Nemesis had a certain control over Lea and could keep her from sharing information with Mab but that only worked until Mab cured Lea. Because Nemesis was in Lea she knew what was going on.

It was when Nemesis control of Lea began to slip that she became more desperate. A cured Lea would tell Mab about Maeve and Maeves cover was valuable. That was when Nemesis organised the attack on Arctis Tor to get Lea back.

Lea was in Arctis Tor when Nemesis attacked and Mab was busy curing her.

[namkcas]

I like your interpretation of events, but you still run into the old WoJ that Mab had Molly brought to AT.  Would your theory still work if Maeve's plan was to kill Molly outright and Mab pulled her to AT to protect her?

knnn,

Man that is a tough one.  Because no I can not reconcile that in my mind.  But you have opened my eyes to something I think I missed.  The Fetches crossed the Carpenter's Threshold to take away Molly.  Which means that they could not mean her harm or were invited.  The only way I get around that is the inadvertent summoning allowing that to happen.  If I make an assumption that it is just they meant no harm, then I can get there.  Until Daniel gets hurt.  Which I might be able to explain as a violation of guest rights by Daniel attacking them.  Still it is REALLY hard to get to.

So, I just re-listened to the part where Bob and Harry are talking about defending the Hotel.  If we make the same assumption set that they made, then I still don't see Molly as the summoner.  Not that she did not have the power, but I don't see her having the knowledge.  This leads to the possibility is that Molly was tagged by Mab as the beacon AND sent the Fetches. 

The thing I don't like about this possibility is Old Man Pell.  Hurting him seems completely out of character with the rest of the actions.  But if I say it is required, then the Fetches expected to take Molly at Splattercon!!! (sorry I forgot the exclamation points last post).  I think I am stuck at the moment until I listen to more.

[Eldest Gruff]

I don't know, Cat Sith was very defined as a personality.  The Sith infection is the oddest we've seen, to be honest. 

Anywho, there's got to be more to Lea's resistance than just being more aware.  Maybe Sith would have realized it himself given time, but Harry's blunt reveal caused Nemesis to take over.

Power coupled with will. I mean that's the only bit that really makes sense. Harry for example is an incredibly antagonistic personality towards his 'enemies' but that alone would not be enough if he didn't have say, Soulfire or his starborn-ness to help fend off a possible Nemsis infection.

Lea is second only to Mab, (and I guess third overall but Mother Winter isn't really active in that sense), in overall strength AND has a strong personality that is all her own. Maeve WANTED the freedom that being infected provided her in her own mind so she was unwilling to fight it, in her mind it gave her exactly what she wanted. Cat Sith is an awfully prideful creature, even if he wasn't force taken almost right away he might not have gone to Mab like Lea did because it would be a stain on his reputation, something he might want to fight off himself. So he is both not strong enough, and not willful enough. My two cents anyway.

[Eldest Gruff]

The thing about that is, required to oppose each other or no, Winter and Summer are explicitly shown to work together in CD, and every Faerie-themed book does end up with the results of both of their actions benefiting both courts.

If you are referring to Maeve and Lily as I assume you are, that is a very abnormal circumstance. Maeve is infected and Lily is lonely/impressionable and overall too willing to 'do good' for her own good. Summer and Winter are diametrically opposed at all other times, its why every time Mab chose Harry as representative or emissary before he became the Knight, Summer was there to oppose him in some way.

I would argue Summer benefitted one time and one time only, when Harry unknowingly blew up the interior of Arctis Tor with summer fire...something that Mab seemed not all that concerned with anyway...and that allowed Summer forces to come to the Council's aid. Every other time Summer gets shafted, their Lady dies TWICE, their Knight once and the new one gets his ass handed to him. The Gruffs are defeated and felled at every turn, the exception being Eldest who gets sent to be an errand boy...amusing thou he found it. Titania is in a perpetual state of depression now and no longer cares if the world goes down. So i'm not certain where the notion that Summer has come out positively in the end is coming from.

Yes.  Because a) Harry's magic fades out before touching it, like with Lord Raith's explicitly Outsider-backed  protection, rather than just being bulled through like Grum in SK or Ursiel in DM, and b) its nature is different from other fetches, it looks like the Scarecrow rather than a fetch disguised as a Scarecrow under Harry's glamour-penetrating ointment which is off enough for me.

Raith's protection isn't explicitly stated to be Outsider related, its just assumed at this point and yeah probably likely considering he had the three Strega's calling up HHWB. But for Scarecrow, the reason his nature is different is because he holds the mantle of Eldest, just like Cat Sith, the oldest and most powerful of its kind. Just like the Red King is far stronger and has more capabilities that pretty much all of his progeny. To me Eldest Fetch is just that, and his nature is a bit different thanks to his mantle.

Consider there are plenty of beings that can snuff or shut Harry down with little more than a thought. Ferrovax does so in GP, Odin in Changes, Mother Winter in CD temporarily...these are the eldest, strongest beings of their respective factions. If Eldest Fetch has been around as long as it claimed, AND is a personal servitor to Mab, surely it could possess much more refined magic that doesn't require it to just brute thru it, Ursiel and Grum are tanks but no one is crediting them with any more than that. Scarecrow rubs his status right in Harry's face with contempt, it knows its power is superior in its own mind anyway,  and does not need to bulldoze thru it.

[knnn]

Man that is a tough one.  Because no I can not reconcile that in my mind.  But you have opened my eyes to something I think I missed.  The Fetches crossed the Carpenter's Threshold to take away Molly.  Which means that they could not mean her harm or were invited.

Maybe.

There's another WoJ (don't have the time to give you exact quote), that Faeries with enough power *can* punch through a threshold with evil intent, and the fetches are sited as a specific example.  Take a look also at the Toad Demon from StF who very blatantly crosses Harry's threshold.

As an aside, have you read Elegast's post on this  http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html?   It takes something I wrote years ago and works Nemesis into it.  I'm not saying it's the end-all theory, but it really seems to pull everything together.  You may find it useful to steal a few ideas from there. 

[namkcas]

Thanks knnn!  More thinking to do on my part.

But I do want to point out something about that WoJ.  It is not as absolute as we think.  If you look at the entire post by Jim, he is actually posting a hypothetical about how we should think about such mysteries.  Clearly, this is a case where this in an intentional event.  All I can say is that just like Elegant's post, that the WoJ is absolute that Mab is behind the kidnapping.  But I will definitely need to think through a viable Mab based alternative.

Secondly, the whole...who cast the ward at Splattercon!!! adds to this.

[Griffyn612]

As an aside, have you read Elegast's post on this  http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html?   It takes something I wrote years ago and works Nemesis into it.  I'm not saying it's the end-all theory, but it really seems to pull everything together.  You may find it useful to steal a few ideas from there.

Ah, the old TTH theory, how I miss thee.  You may have only gotten 25%, but gosh darn it, that's 25% more than MDwaKotC ever got.

[groinkick]

One thing to consider.  Mab may have lost the battle.  She may have been forced to agree to something.  Grant someone a favor.  As a Fae, she cannot back out of it.  She may betray Dresden at some point because of this.

[Griffyn612]

One thing to consider.  Mab may have lost the battle.  She may have been forced to agree to something.  Grant someone a favor.  As a Fae, she cannot back out of it.  She may betray Dresden at some point because of this.

Meh... there's a WoJ that implies that Mab won.  It basically said, "after it was all over, she was still there".  It was vague enough to allow for multiple interpretations, but his tone seemed to imply that it was a victorious stand rather than a compromised end to hostilities.

[groinkick]

Meh... there's a WoJ that implies that Mab won.  It basically said, "after it was all over, she was still there".  It was vague enough to allow for multiple interpretations, but his tone seemed to imply that it was a victorious stand rather than a compromised end to hostilities.

I didn't mean it was a compromise.  I meant the attack all along wasn't meant to be a victory for the bad guys.  The intent was to force Mab into a type of deal for later down the road, not to defeat her.

[Griffyn612]

I didn't mean it was a compromise.  I meant the attack all along wasn't meant to be a victory for the bad guys.  The intent was to force Mab into a type of deal for later down the road, not to defeat her.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what type of deal you're referring to.