Poll

Who attacked Arctis Tor?  What was their motivation?  

The Circle
11 (21.2%)
The Outsiders/Nemesis (formerly known as the Black Council)
31 (59.6%)
The Red Court
0 (0%)
The Fomor
2 (3.8%)
A faction attacking while Maeve was in charge, so that she could sabotage the defenses
8 (15.4%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why  (Read 84425 times)

Offline ShadowWing

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2015, 08:34:01 PM »
We have confirmation in Small Favor that Nic had no clue that any of the Fallen (at least any in his court) were present at AT.  IIRC, Harry pretty much calls out Nic about the attack when they had the convo at the Shea and Nic blinked in shock and hsi manner did seem to change has his brain was going overdrive at who among the fallen would do it...and why.

So we can count Nic is not involved in any form with the attack in PG.

Next question is Thorny acting alone or in concert with other Fallen on this?

Offline groinkick

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2015, 08:34:06 PM »
The Fallen (Thorned Namshiel), and Black Council. 

"Near the end of Small Favor, Mab says that she and the Archangel Uriel had a common enemy that day, that there was one among the Fallen who had to answer for the Hellfire attack on Arctis Tor. Harry remembers the silvery hand and infers that Mab means Black Council and Thorned Namshiel."

http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Namshiel


My guess is that those in power know shits going to go down.  They are forming alliances for when it does.  I don't think the Outsiders were responsible but the reason why everyone is so jumpy.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:35:52 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2015, 08:34:49 PM »
Wait, the Black Circle and the Black Council are synonymous. The Outsiders are the Outsiders, they are not the same as the Black Council.

They may work together on occasion, but they are not the same, as far as I know.
Going off the WoJ below, I'm convinced there is no 'Black Council'.  The 'Black Council' is actually Nemesis and the Outsiders manipulating things.  I'm willing to concede that there may be a Circle, which is incorporating mortal/monster cooperation.  But the 'Black Council' that showed up in COLD DAYS was revealed to be Nemesis & Co.

Quote
How soon are we going to see more direct contact with Cowl and the Black Court (sic, the context sounds like "Council")?
Next book [at the time, Cold Days]. Yeah, next book we’ll see them again  Actually, this will be really the first time I get to have them be more active than behind the scenes in terms of what role they’re playing.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2015, 08:37:10 PM »
Going off the WoJ below, I'm convinced there is no 'Black Council'.  The 'Black Council' is actually Nemesis and the Outsiders manipulating things.  I'm willing to concede that there may be a Circle, which is incorporating mortal/monster cooperation.  But the 'Black Council' that showed up in COLD DAYS was revealed to be Nemesis & Co.
The other thing could be that Jim changed his mind between saying that and writing the book.  He's pushed stuff back before, as I recall.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2015, 08:40:16 PM »
The other thing could be that Jim changed his mind between saying that and writing the book.  He's pushed stuff back before, as I recall.
That's possible, which is why I'm giving the 'Circle' option as the old 'Black Council' Harry theorized.  But there aren't two, that much I'm convinced of.  Not actively, anyways.  There's only the Outsiders and the Circle, and all the convoluted relationships between them.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2015, 09:14:13 PM »
We have confirmation in Small Favor that Nic had no clue that any of the Fallen (at least any in his court) were present at AT.  IIRC, Harry pretty much calls out Nic about the attack when they had the convo at the Shea and Nic blinked in shock and hsi manner did seem to change has his brain was going overdrive at who among the fallen would do it...and why.

So we can count Nic is not involved in any form with the attack in PG.



Next question is Thorny acting alone or in concert with other Fallen on this?

The Hellfire produced was in Harry's estimation far greater than he could produce, so either it was a whole passle of Denarians working together, or it was a user of Hellfire more powerful than a Denarian. Fallen Archangel perhaps?

It would make sense if it was the Big Guy behind everything.

Left in Arctis actor was the I egged Lea, perhaps she was the target.

Offline wyltok

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2015, 09:16:57 PM »
Keep in mind, the barges were not stolen by a bunch of Outsiders in the middle of the night, they were rented, along with pretty much every other boat available. And the people inside the barges were mortals, even if there were Outsiders protecting the barges in the water.

That means manpower, and resources and someone with sufficient magical knowhow to figure out a spell to unravel Merlin's creation of Demonreach.

Nemesis has gone corporate.

Harry's great arrogance was in assuming that the people in charge of the Circle were wizards opposing the White Council. Cold Days taught him that the White Council is just a sideshow in all this.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 10:22:42 PM »
Going off the WoJ below, I'm convinced there is no 'Black Council'.  The 'Black Council' is actually Nemesis and the Outsiders manipulating things.  I'm willing to concede that there may be a Circle, which is incorporating mortal/monster cooperation.  But the 'Black Council' that showed up in COLD DAYS was revealed to be Nemesis & Co.

  Nemesis is just a tool or cat's paw for what Mother Summer called simply, The Enemy...

Offline Phariah

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 10:42:20 PM »
Mab owed Anduriel a favor from way back when she became watcher over the Outer Gates, there is a WOJ floating around about it from not that long ago. Nothing to do with Arctis Tor.
never seen it. i still stand behind Mab involved in it more so than an enemy attack. that reads more like deception than threat. if the debt is as you say, i can easily switch gears to a tricked Denarion lead/ Circle grp trying a fast strike to free Lea. they were set-up by Mab thus clearing the way for Harry.
cause seriously, you think Harry was getting in there if it wasn't wrecked?
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2015, 11:03:06 PM »
  Nemesis is just a tool or cat's paw for what Mother Summer called simply, The Enemy...
Or 'The Enemy' is another nickname for Nemesis, like 'The Adversary'.

But I agree that there's a chance Nemesis is just a Walker, in which case the Big Bad is still the Outsiders, but we haven't seen the master.  Probably Lord of Slowest Terror.

never seen it. i still stand behind Mab involved in it more so than an enemy attack. that reads more like deception than threat. if the debt is as you say, i can easily switch gears to a tricked Denarion lead/ Circle grp trying a fast strike to free Lea. they were set-up by Mab thus clearing the way for Harry.
cause seriously, you think Harry was getting in there if it wasn't wrecked?
I don't think Harry would have had to go there if it wasn't wrecked.  I also don't think Mab would allow someone to destroy her home and its guards just to lure someone in.  Especially since it appears that at least some of them (Namshiel and others that she said would pay) are still at large.  And the fact that she seemed upset about people attacking her place.  Of course, Marcone acting mad that one of his people got killed in his own plot that used his place sounds similar.  Maybe both of them are nuts.

The Hellfire produced was in Harry's estimation far greater than he could produce, so either it was a whole passle of Denarians working together, or it was a user of Hellfire more powerful than a Denarian. Fallen Archangel perhaps?

It would make sense if it was the Big Guy behind everything.

Left in Arctis actor was the I egged Lea, perhaps she was the target.

It was greater than Harry could produce as a non-Denarian who hadn't taken up the coin.  There's always the chance that an actual Bearer with magical ability (like Namshiel apparently had) could tap more power than Harry ever got.


  My vote goes for "other" at this point, because I think there were allies involved.  There is evidence of Denarian involvement, or someone or thing that could use Hell Fire, Harry confirmed that.. We know in the war against the Reds, there were Outsiders involved in the battles..  There were traders on the Senior Council, most likely working for the Circle..  There is also evidence that the attack was a tactic, and there was some kind of long game thing going on with Summer.  It could be another group we haven't even heard of yet, using everyone as a gigantic cat's paw.
If you provide a who and why I'll add them to the list. 

SK has Lea telling Harry specifically that Mab and Titania are powers equivalent to Archangels and lesser deities. That's pretty tough. If Mab has power roughly equivalent to Uriel (archangel) who can destroy galaxies with only a little effort, I don't think a couple of Denarians (who are not Fallen themselves) and a few B-movie 'tentacled horrors' are gonna present much of a threat.
Did she say archangels?  Because no way.  I think she must have meant angels.  Uriel can destroy galaxies.  Mab can, at most, destroy Earth, or all of reality if she neglected her duties.  But I think if she did that, the Mothers would get involved.

I keep going back to this WoJ:

Nah, they wouldn't even come close.  I mean... it's like comparing apples and... and hand grenades. 

Just about the best they could hope to accomplish would be to force Mab to make an effort.  Though when Mab came for them, it wouldn't be a kick-down-the-door-and kick-ass kind of encounter.  It would be a One-two-three-four-five-Hey-weren't-there SIX-of-us-here-a-second-ago? situation.


So even with a mix of Outsiders and Denarians, there is zero chance of hurting Mab.
That's why my 'Circle Attack' theory fits.  It postulates that Mab wasn't there.   And if Maeve did the time slowdown, then the couple of minutes Mab and Harry chatted could have been hours.  Then when Mab came back, she kicked ass, while also realizing that Maeve was infected to be working with the bad guys against her.

Offline brighellac

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2015, 12:50:20 AM »
One aspect to consider- the raiders either left no casualties or they were indistinguishable from the winter fae defenders.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2015, 02:48:31 AM »
One aspect to consider- the raiders either left no casualties or they were indistinguishable from the winter fae defenders.
Yeah, Harry mentions thousands of human-like skeletons, but we've no way of knowing if they were defenders, ramps, Fomor, servitors, or something else.  the burned state of some implies defenders, but not all were burned.

Offline namkcas

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2015, 04:10:32 AM »
So, I have enjoyed the many thoughtful posts in this thread.  It has led me to another question.  I don't have a theory yet, but wanted to post it to allow others to add it to the questions here.

If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue?  It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force.  Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending?  If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2015, 06:42:28 AM »
'The Enemy' is another nickname for Nemesis, like 'The Adversary'.

"The Enemy", "Nemesis", "The Adversary".  Before (Hope slayer), Behind ( Terror), Beside.  Fidelacchius (Sword of Hope), Esperacchius (Sword of Faith), Amoracchius (Sword of Love).  Dunno if it means anything but maybe each sword is a counter to the Walkers.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Acalanthis

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Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2015, 07:31:31 AM »
So, I have enjoyed the many thoughtful posts in this thread.  It has led me to another question.  I don't have a theory yet, but wanted to post it to allow others to add it to the questions here.

If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue?  It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force.  Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending?  If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.

Or scarier thought: the attacking force was so powerful that Mab only just managed to beat it off.