Proven Guilty Mysteries

[Quantus]

Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG.  It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.

In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle.  If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?

Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.

Interesting point.  From the events of SK, I dont think the mantle has any sort of "Always Open" connection to the Queens, and the Mantle itself is always described as a specific lump investment of Power, which sounds like a Finite allotment.  So, if he didnt directly interact with himself or an active Queen, it shouldnt cause immediate paradox problems.  It would lead to a Court imbalance since there would suddenly be twice as much Winter KNight around, but as long has he left quickly and took the extra power with him when he left it wouldnt be around enough to cause lasting issues. 

Of course, all that assumes that when you Time Travel you are creating a Time Travel Duplicate.  My current Time Travelling Harry theory has it working like 7 Days, where you jump back into your younger body and just bring along your mind, and that Harry's large Memory gaps (the Justin Confrontation, the several hour gap after the battle of Chitzen Itza, etc) are instances where he wasnt in the Driver Seat because a Harry with more seniority was visiting. 

[Carl]

@Knnn: Wow, wow, wow...

Where'd you find that line, just for reference?

That throws a lot more balls up in the air than previously. We know from Mab herself in CD that she had no interest in Molly personally till the end of changes. That combined with this really narrows down what Mab was trying to achieve but runs head on into the question of how she knew Maeve would help Harry when he needed it, and what if anything she was planning beyond the simple lure Harry to Arctis Tor.

[Quantus]

@Knnn: Wow, wow, wow...

Where'd you find that line, just for reference?

That throws a lot more balls up in the air than previously. We know from Mab herself in CD that she had no interest in Molly personally till the end of changes. That combined with this really narrows down what Mab was trying to achieve but runs head on into the question of how she knew Maeve would help Harry when he needed it, and what if anything she was planning beyond the simple lure Harry to Arctis Tor.

What passage are you looking at for this bit?  I didnt remember that and cant find it in the last conversation Harry and Mab had after the killing.  Was it before that somewhere?

[Mira]

@Knnn: Wow, wow, wow...

Where'd you find that line, just for reference?

That throws a lot more balls up in the air than previously. We know from Mab herself in CD that she had no interest in Molly personally till the end of changes. That combined with this really narrows down what Mab was trying to achieve but runs head on into the question of how she knew Maeve would help Harry when he needed it, and what if anything she was planning beyond the simple lure Harry to Arctis Tor.

I don't think that is exactly true, it was foreshadowed in Grave Peril when Lea said something to Michael about his first born..  No not exactly Mab, but then again the connection is there.

[knnn]

I think Carl is referring to the WoJ I quoted.

@Carl, there's a whole section in the forums detailing all the WoJ we collectively have (many thanks to Serack for compiling most of them and to anyone and everyone who contributes/d).  I make a point of going through them about once a year (and to re-listen to old podcasts/interviews to see if there are any others I can add).

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/board,43.50.html

The specific WoJ in question is from one of those rare times Jim actually posted on the forums.  It's well worth click on his profile and reading everything he posted here.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=5

This particular WoJ is from:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,330.msg152191.html#msg152191

(Actually, I pulled it from Elegast's PG thread http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html)

[Quantus]

I think Carl is referring to the WoJ I quoted.

the "Why did Mab have Molly brought in" quote?  There wasnt anything there, or in the source WOJ, that said Mab wasnt interested in Molly unitl after Changes (and was from 2 years prior to Changes anyway). 

I ask because everything we have, most especially that WOJ, says Mab was interested in Molly at least as early as PG.  If we have something that says otherwise it's a big detail

[Griffyn612]

Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG.  It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.

In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle.  If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?

Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.

We'll have to see what happens to the mantle when he travels to a different dimension.  Does it go with him, or does it get stripped from him?  If it goes, then the original universe is thrown out of balance by its absence. 

But I'd assume that since Slate is inactive as Knight, and was for years, that there wouldn't be too much of an issue.  Not for such a brief time.

[Carl]

What passage are you looking at for this bit?  I didnt remember that and cant find it in the last conversation Harry and Mab had after the killing.  Was it before that somewhere?

It's in the final part of CD. Mab talks about how Molly helping Harry kill himself brought her to her attention.

@Knnn: there's so many WoJ's finding a specific one can be tough, also the archive hasn't been updated since SG so it's doubtless missing some and i wasn't sure if it was one of those.

[Griffyn612]

the "Why did Mab have Molly brought in" quote?  There wasnt anything there, or in the source WOJ, that said Mab wasnt interested in Molly unitl after Changes (and was from 2 years prior to Changes anyway). 

I ask because everything we have, most especially that WOJ, says Mab was interested in Molly at least as early as PG.  If we have something that says otherwise it's a big detail

There's an inference in COLD DAYS that Mab trusted Molly as capable enough because Harry trusted her to mess with his head in CHANGES.  I didn't take it so much as Mab taking a 'first interest', but her assuming that Harry was signing off that Molly was ready.

“You trusted her with your mind and your life,” Mab said. “I took that as a statement of confidence in her abilities.

[Quantus]

It's in the final part of CD. Mab talks about how Molly helping Harry kill himself brought her to her attention.

Yes, but all that was talking about how she originally had another purpose in mind for Molly, but had to retask her as a Lady candidate to counter the Maeve ploy.  She was already interested and active with Molly. 

[raidem]

“You trusted her with your mind and your life,” Mab said. “I took that as a statement of confidence in her abilities.

You know, I sometimes wonder if I'm infected with some sort of Ms.Duck disease.  I cant help but view Mab's lines not just as a literal comment but one that has a bearing on herself.  For instance, Mab is saying two things: Harry had confidence in Molly; Secondly, Harry had confidence in Molly=Mab's abilities.

I just don't do this with Mab words, I see things in the books and its like all shaded by Ms. Duck's theory.  Its like Ms. Duck actually is Molly and Mab and she is playing with my thoughts, my mind.  Is there some banishment spell or something that can help with this affliction?

[ShadowWing]

To add to more fuel to the plot is also Mab's comment that she thought Molly was better suited to Summer. 

She may have been directly/indirectly working with Titania to groom Molly for a role in the SUMMER court, Mab had just discovered her Winter Lady was infected, but no worries she has a spare daughter if she can't cure Maeve.  But if the Outsiders/Enemy has gotten THAT close to Mab then the current Summer Lady has GOT to go, Lily was in no way ready for the role she would need to play if the Enemy got further 'inside' so to speak.  Molly could have started to be groomed become the Summer Knight or Summer Lady at the Proven Guilty stage.

It was only after her actions in Changes, messing with Harry's mind, able to make the hard logical calls to 'get the job done' as opposed of letting her very strong emotions/feeling for Harry get in the way of it would have gotten Mab's attention.  By choosing Logic over her Heart Molly showed she had the chops to be a part of the Winter Court, and Mab tailored her plans accordingly.

[Lawgiver]

Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG.  It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.

In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle.  If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?

Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.

Edit:  Never mind, wyltok already did an amaising job of discussing most of this here

Is it likely that having 2 WK mantles present at the same time would weaken Winter and supply the heat in the book? The power of the mantles comes from Mab. If she's powering two of them at the same time that might set some limits on her influences and, by extension, supply a simple action/reaction 'boost' to Summer's influences. Might explain why she's in AT, staying as close to the Wellspring as she can.

And, having two mantles together like that would give Mab loads of support why she tells Harry (more than once) he'll be the WK at some point. She knows it because it's already happened.

Not sure. It's so muddy that almost anything could be true.
/sigh

[Carl]

Read the surrounding text, (the specific line i was thinking of may have been lea in GS now that i think about it):

Specifically:

Had I not considered her an excellent candidate, I would never have had her prepared.

In this case prepared is clearly referencing the point a few pages earlier that it was Molly's association with the Fae through Lea that made her a viable as a Lady candidate. Mab had Molly prepared because of what Harry did in changes. Which is what i said anyway.

[raidem]

Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG.  It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.

In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle.  If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?

Actually, I encountered this same conundrum when I predicted a (Kumori=Maggie Sr) and (Kumori/Maggie Sr has Lasciel's coin) theory.  A reality with time travel could have multiple coins of the same Fallen existing at the same point in time, particularly if they are carried there by a time traveler.

But this same problem exists when one has the same individual present multiple times within same timeframe.  There are probably similar mechanisms that explain both.  TTHarry (from future) would be pulling power from the FutureQueens not from the current Queens.  Future Queens determined that it was necessary to defeat a gambit in the past by sending their knight and power into the past, it weakens them in their current time but its likely that the enemy did the same thing by sending their power into the past which then required a response from the Queens.

It seems to me that it is Mother Summer and Winter that have jurisdiction over of matters of time.  Like there is a distribution of responsibility for each level in the Queens hierarchy.
Time;                                       Time
Winter and Outergate;               Summer and Mab;
Winter and Mortal Realm            Summer and Mortal Realm