Proven Guilty Mysteries

[Serack]

as Thomas moves out right before Harry stuffs Bob into his bag for half the book.

Harry actually stuffed Bob into his bag /before/ Thomas moved him out.

I wrote about this pretty extensively here

I'm not the only one floored by your pointing out that Titania was probably present during Proven Guilty.  Awesome point!

[Serack]

KurtinStGeorge,

IMO, the 40 degree temperature drop should be a flashing neon sign that Winter was involved in the ward Harry had to fight through that was familiar to him.  I also agree with the points that Mavra wasn't really mentioned much in that book and thus wasn't relevant.  I also think Mavra is pretty dang scared of Harry since Harry is a serious threat to her necromantically.  Jim has said that Harry wasn't bluffing about his insights from Kemler's book being a credible threat to her.

On the other hand, for the original timeline, Proven Guilty was supposed to happen before Harry read the Kemler book.  And although Mavra wasn't mentioned, it's commonly accepted around here that the homeless shelter reference could be a tie in to Mavra. 

I dunno, I think Mavra's being involved at the convention is a long shot, but I won't throw it out.

[Griffyn612]

What if the weather wasn't caused by Titania's presence, but by Mab's preoccupation?  is there a chance that her work to heal Lea, combined with Maeve neglecting her duties, AT being weakened, and the odd arrangement of winter's forces, might have contributed to the odd weather patterns in many places, but Harry's perspective only saw Chicago?

While I agree that the weather does tie into previously witnessed weather changes due to the presence of a queen, I just haven't been able to figure out what role Titania played.  not without requiring time travel Harry to go back to find out what was really happening.

[KurtinStGeorge]

KurtinStGeorge,

IMO, the 40 degree temperature drop should be a flashing neon sign that Winter was involved in the ward Harry had to fight through that was familiar to him. 

I recall frost forming on the blue beetle's windshield and on the wire fence at Wal Mart in Summer Knight.  That was Elaine's work and it was an attempt to make Harry believe someone in Winter was behind stealing the Summer Knight's mantel.  So I discount the temperature drop as proof that anyone from Winter put up the ward.
   

KurtinStGeorge,
On the other hand, for the original timeline, Proven Guilty was supposed to happen before Harry read the Kemler book.  And although Mavra wasn't mentioned, it's commonly accepted around here that the homeless shelter reference could be a tie in to Mavra. 

I dunno, I think Mavra's being involved at the convention is a long shot, but I won't throw it out.

I have wondered what elements of the back story of Proven Guilty had to be swapped with those in Dead Beat in order to make the flipping of the order of those two books make sense.  For example, did Jim originally have the Red Court calling up Outsiders and using of poison gas on wounded Wardens and near by civilians, in the first version of Proven Guilty and then have to flip the big assault on the White Council to Dead Beat when that one was moved ahead of PG?

I also wonder if flipping the books might have created one or more inconsistencies within the total story arc.  My guess is Jim worked through any issues that may have arisen, but we can't be entirely certain of that.   

On a slightly different tack, we know PG takes place in the summer time.  In one of the early chapters Harry mentions he wants to get back inside out of the blazing sun.  As I stated in my earlier post, the planning for the fetch attacks and setting up Darby Crane to take the fall for them started a little more than a year previously.  That means the planning was in motion before the events in Dead Beat occurred.  In my mind that at least removes Cowl and Kumori from playing any hidden role in PG.  They were too involved in their own attempt to turn Cowl into a demi-god during the previous autumn to have also been in on the planning of the events which occurred at Splattercon!!!         

[Foxed]

Harry actually stuffed Bob into his bag /before/ Thomas moved him out.

I wrote about this pretty extensively here

Geez I just read this book and I still got the timing wrong! Anyways, that fits in with my theory that Future Harry is working with Thomas. (Did you see my point about how Thomas pretty consistently stays out of any decision making once he rescues Harry?)

I'm not the only one floored by your pointing out that Titania was probably present during Proven Guilty.  Awesome point!

Thanks!

[raidem]

WHY MOLLY?

This is difficult to guess, and can seemingly only be explained by assuming Maeve knows more than she should. Either Maeve knows that Molly is Harry's best friend's daughter and a mortal practitioner coming into her talent, or it is an amazing coincidence that her plan hinges on. We know Arctis Tor was attacked by a rogue Denarian. We suspect this rogue Denarian was a Nemesis agent with a Coin. It's plausible to posit that Maeve and Nemesis sent another agent, the rogue Denarian, to clear out Arctis Tor, leaving the Wellspring unguarded why Mab was curing the Leanansidhe. And through Lea and the Denarian, it's possible Nemesis knows about Michael. But what about his family?

Gregor. Molly was targeted as Charity's daughter, and not as Michael's. We know she has Fae in her ancestry, and that this is likely the source of her and her daughter's talents. I posit that Charity is Aurora's descendant. Future Harry, by the way, isn't the only player operating on the periphery. Someone else is in town.

The sun had risen on our way there, though heavy cloud cover and grumbling thunder promised unusually bad weather for so early in the day. That shouldn't have surprised me either. When the Queens of Faerie were moving around backstage, the weather quite often seemed to reflect their presence.

We see this again in Small Favor and Ghost Story, where particularly frigid weather means that Mab is in the area. So, let's check out the opening to Proven Guilty's second chapter:

I turned my back on them and walked out of the warehouse into Chicago's best impression of Miami. July in the Midwest is rarely less than sultry, but this year had been especially intense when it came to summer heat, and it had rained frequently.

What the hell is Titania doing in Chicago? Combining this with Mab's assertion that Molly would be a better fit for Summer and the symmetry of a Winter scion becoming the Summer Lady while a Summer scion becomes the Winter Lady, and it's not unreasonable to conclude that Molly's Fae ancestry stretches to Titania.

But that doesn't answer what Titania's goal is. Fix and Lily aren't working towards it. They're working towards Maeve's goals. It would be a stretch for Titania to be infected with Nemesis, wouldn't it?

I suspect that Titania was trying to groom Molly to be Lily's successor, subtly, in the background. Maybe by nudging the right books into Molly's hands. I suspect that Winter's Queens knew this and were keeping tabs on Molly for that reason. And when the pump was primed, Maeve chose Molly to use as a fear anchor.

This is the wildest-assed guess, but I think it holds up

To me, the above quoted piece is pioneering work that I haven't seen before on this forum.  The plausible link between Titania and Titania's choice for Summer Lady being that of Molly is excellent.

There's another time traveler in the tale, and I suspect he's working with Thomas. It seems suspicious that Thomas is tailing Harry on this one adventure. But there's something I noticed once Thomas joins the plot: he does his best to remain uninvolved.

I glanced at Thomas, who was facing away, a little apart from the rest of us, staying out of the decision-making process.

There are other instances where Thomas basically wallflowers. He's very careful not to disrupt the natural flow of the case as much as he can help it. I think, like Rashid, Thomas has future information.**

Hitting Harry keeps him out of the apartment. I posit that Future Harry is at the periphery in Proven Guilty, and whenever Harry is out of the apartment, Future Harry is using it as his base of operations. Future Harry has Thomas as a knowing accomplice.***

This is another strong argument that Thomas knows more than he lets on.  Prior theories had interactions between Thomas and LC Fixer, even a time traveling Harry, but it seemed that no theory suggested that they were closely working together. 
When Harry comes home and finds Thomas all packed up and ready to leave, there is a strange conversation between Thomas and Harry.  About Mac's brew frozen into ice cubes, that Thomas says Mac would kill you for freezing it, that Harry says Mac can come over here and... (forget the final bit of the conversation).  But there seems something that Thomas is trying to tell Harry, some hint about upcoming events.  One could argue its simply chatter leading up to Thomas telling Harry that he is leaving though I'm sure Harry already knows that considering the packed bags.

Not to detract from your accomplishment but to state fact, the hot weather had been pointed out previously and it had been linked to Titania but no theory went any further than that.   No one that I saw ever attempted to link Molly to Titania, Titania's play in PG, and Mab's statement in Cold Days, even viewed with hindsight.

[Carl]

Random point but bob tells us in SK that global warming is actually down to Summer holding a slight edge over Winter for the last century or so influence wise, (presumably due to maeve slacking off).

As of PG not only is Mab's personal Lieutenant out of the picture but so is Mab, and maeve is now actively collaborating with Summer, not to mention the WK is out of play. That puts Winters influence at an all time low. Which means the world will get warmer. You don't need Titania present or involved to get a blazing hot summer.

[Serack]

Geez I just read this book and I still got the timing wrong! Anyways, that fits in with my theory that Future Harry is working with Thomas. (Did you see my point about how Thomas pretty consistently stays out of any decision making once he rescues Harry?)

Oh yah, you're conclusions are still upheld, or even stronger given the arguments I made in that link. 

Sometimes when I "Theorize" on specifics in the events in the stories, I just point in a direction and don't actually conclude much for fear of being wrong.  I don't really enjoy getting bashed for proposing a theory that doesn't have much backing, but I do enjoy reading them.

I'm not 100% sold that Thomas' wall flower impression is significant in the way you say (I seem to remember Thomas doing it even after the action for very credible reasons within the story), but it certainly is a data point that helps support the TT!Harry theories and I don't remember anyone coming up with it before.

[knnn]

A number of thoughts:

1) We've been told that Madrigal/Darby was invited to the Con about a year previous, so whoever is hatching these plans, started around the events of Dead Beat (possibly even before?  Need to look at the exact dates).

2) Mab winks at Harry.  To me this implies that Mab was orchestrating at least some of the events.  Note also the famous PG WoJ:

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?

Jim may well be lying or misleading us, but the straight reading of that sentence implies that the actual kidnapping of Molly was Mab's idea.

3) As mentioned above, extreme heat may also be caused by Mab being busy with healing Lea.  Other alternative -- seasons.  Assume that Mab isn't capable of physically raising the global temperature around the world and that instead she "cheats" -- e.g. blows cold weather from the North Pole to Chicago (e.g. to help Harry during SmF).  If this is the case, it makes some weird sense that "nature" would push back, creating a heat wave once Mab was done "pushing".

4) The big issue with TTHarry (and yes, I am a believer in that theory) is that it introduces  a whole new complexity to the narrative.  I think it would be interesting to assume TTHarry for PG, and then use Occam's Razor on everything else -- i.e. try to come up with the simplest narrative that includes TTH.

5) On the plus side, I find it interesting that Titania actually helps Harry with saving Molly.  Granting him the title of "Esquire of the Summer Court" might have been a two-edged sword, but it certainly helped his credibility in the short term.   I'm not sure that action really fits our image of a completely vindictive Titania.

6) Another Titania-shaped piece is that we've seen how Mab is required to fulfill Lea's debts while she was being "detained".  You'd think the same thing would apply to Titania/Lily.  Was Titania preventing Lily from helping Harry in the hopes of getting Lily debt to Harry to fall on Titania?  The fact that Harry got around the geas by giving to Charity might not have been Titania's original plan.

[Foxed]

1. Which is why I like Marling as a pawn of Maeve and not Maeve glamoured. Her cover is much too deep and I don't think Maeve has the skills to pull it off for a year.

2. That is a very good point. Jim does seem to be clearly saying that Mab done did it with regards to at least the kidnapping. I still think the majority of the plot was Maeve's plan, though. Ah! I have a working hypothesis!

That fateful night must have also been the attack on Arctis Tor. When Mab's elite assassins weren't there for it, Mab must have had the fetches return with the mortal Maeve was using as their anchor.

3. Most of the "Mab's here so it's winter in Chicago" stuff comes after this, though. I do buy that the strong summer could be a lack of winter, but with the Table in Summer's control anyways, I think Titania having a role to play is likelier.

4. Well, there's a ready-made other story happening... the attack on Arctis Tor. A rogue Denarian. I like Future Harry for that plot. I also like him for fixing Little Chicago for his own purposes because, once you let him into the narrative, he's the most reasonable suspect.

5. That is a very good point, and circumstantial corroboration of my "Titania is grooming Molly" theory! Titania isn't stopping Lily from helping Harry because Lily is also helping Molly.

6. I don't buy it. Remember Lily owes Harry a favor. Why would Titania try to orchestrate events to make it so that she would owe Harry? In the end, yes, Harry gets a free favor from her. Which she then makes him desperate enough to use in Small Favor.

[redwizard]

I recall frost forming on the blue beetle's windshield and on the wire fence at Wal Mart in Summer Knight.  That was Elaine's work and it was an attempt to make Harry believe someone in Winter was behind stealing the Summer Knight's mantel.  So I discount the temperature drop as proof that anyone from Winter put up the ward.

Slate was there as well, in fact I always took it he was responsible for the frost on the Beetle's windshield. He did attack Harry right after that. I thought the frost was part of Slate's attack. Blind the enemy the move in. The wire fence could have been either one, but since I prefer Slate doing that as well. It could be written off to Aurora, but I find it unlikely given Slate was present as well.

[Serack]

Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG.  It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.

In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle.  If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?

Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.

Edit:  Never mind, wyltok already did an amaising job of discussing most of this here

[Foxed]

I suppose Lloyd might not count as he's pretty well inactive. In addition, I mean, it's not impossible that the Mantles are extra-temporal (so from the perspective of the mantles themselves, there's no issue) or that Future Fix is also there as a counter-weight.

Or, and now we're really off the rails even for a time travel theory, Future Harry is actually Unstuck In Time Harry and also Sleepwalking Harry.

[knnn]

Or maybe one of the twists is that it really is a problem, and if Harry uses his WK powers during his TT episode, he breaks the universe.   Seems like a curveball Jim might use.

[Foxed]

A limit to impose on Harry for an adventure? Jim would never do that to him.