Deirdre's Coin [Possible Spoilers]

[mebeksis]

Quote from: kazimmoinuddin on December 04, 2014, 09:40:34 PM

    Harry could get the info on to the internet


Are you forgetting that computers in Harry's vicinity, as a rule, go kaboom? Blue Screen of Death? Who'd believe a bunch of assertions without proof, apart from conspiracy-theorists like Butters's crazy friend Gary?

A) Harry doesn't know a single person with access to a computer and the ability to use one?  He couldn't write the appropriate information down and then have, say, Murphy take a jaunt down to the local library and create a Yahoo page to post the info on? or wikipedia?

B) The conspiracy theorist place would be the absolute BEST thing!  The more often it gets repeated/blogged/reposted would spread it more...and really, the Church is the only entity that would really require it...so simply have an edict from the Pope saying "Every catholic church must keep this file on their server"...literally millions of copies for the KotC

[mid_life_crisis]

A) Harry doesn't know a single person with access to a computer and the ability to use one?  He couldn't write the appropriate information down and then have, say, Murphy take a jaunt down to the local library and create a Yahoo page to post the info on? or wikipedia?

B) The conspiracy theorist place would be the absolute BEST thing!  The more often it gets repeated/blogged/reposted would spread it more...and really, the Church is the only entity that would really require it...so simply have an edict from the Pope saying "Every catholic church must keep this file on their server"...literally millions of copies for the KotC

or just get an article published in the Enquirer, "Judas Coin Caused Black Plague", and explain the deal about the fallen angels that are so evil that only objects tainted by the vilest act of treachery would be corrupted enough to hold them. 
Every religious conspiracy nut that sees signs of the coming apocalypse in everything will talk about them until everyone they know wants to kill them.

[toodeep]

My question is why Harry's spell hurt Nic so badly.  We've seen him heal from gunshots to the chest quickly, but Harry's fastball to the ribs slowed him down dramatically.  Why didn't the noose protect him from the harm caused by Harry's snowball?

[mid_life_crisis]

My question is why Harry's spell hurt Nic so badly.  We've seen him heal from gunshots to the chest quickly, but Harry's fastball to the ribs slowed him down dramatically.  Why didn't the noose protect him from the harm caused by Harry's snowball?

At that point, things were happening pretty fast.  He might have been healing but there just hadn't been enough time for it to be enough to matter.

[dspringer1]

Consider that Nic now is in a much different place. His secret of how the noose can be used against him is out. Anduriel's power has been revealed, and with it, a way to counter one of Nic's biggest advantages. Nic's following has never seen him take it on the chin like that in their lives. Setbacks, yes, but not to that degree. Nic's standing among the supernatural set has taken a huge hit. He no longer has a favor he can call in from Mab. His two biggest Denarian supporters are either dead (Deirdre) or now bitterly opposed to him (Tessa). He has trespassed into the Vault of Hades and could conceivably be on Hades' list of People To Do Bad Things To.

Old Nic had his secrets intact, his followers (mortal and Denarian), his Marker with Mab, and his reputation. New Nic has none of that. He's going to be different now. How he is different, remains to be seen. He could become reckless, fearful, overly cautious, etc. It'll be interesting to see if/how Jim decides to shape Nic going forward.

I am not seeing Nic as seriously weakened.   Yes he will go quiet for a bit to heal his wounds and compensate for his losses, but he is still a nasty threat

*  Nic lost Dedrie, his trusted and very powerful lieutenant.   That hurts in a big way
*  Nic's reputation is trashed, which will make it harder for him to recruit mercenaries or temporary allies.   But let's put that in perspective.   All Denarians have a horid reputation as backstabbers and liars.   They are freaking fallen angels.   The fact that he burned some allies will make it harder/more expensive get future allies/mercenaries, but there are clearly enough bad creautres in the world that his pool of available assistance is still pretty deep.

Nic sitll has a lot of sources of power
1) obviously sitll very wealthy
2) still has the vast pool of information that Andurial collects for him
3) still has all the powers and knowledge of the captain of the Fallen
4) still has his reputation as the most deadly Fallen of them all
5) still has the Noose.  And while Harry could tell everybody about that weakness, he has not to date told anybody.  Even if Harry tells the world about this weakness, it is only a small weakness.  Conditions have to be just right to make it work and Nic is deadly in melee combat.   
6) still has at least one coin to hand out, and perhaps several more.   
7) still can rally the rest of the fallen to his banner for a big operation such as occured in Small Favor.   
8 ) still has the Holy Grail, an artifact of such great power that it makes the swords seem weak.
9) still Nic, one of the two most dangeorus beings Harry has ever faced.  the other is, of course, Marcone who has no powers at all.   

[Snark Knight]

The one problem here is that once Nic was helpless, Michael would have started talking to him again, trying to save him.  Harry would have had to do the ice spear trick then run over and grab the noose.  Or the frigidus-forzare combo and then picked up the noose from the Nic chunks.

I think Michael was committed to ending him by that point.  He's smart enough to realize that ice wouldn't hold Nic forever once Anduriel set his attention to freeing him.

[kazimmoinuddin]

 THere are only 3 truly experience denarian hosts left, the rest of the order would have to be filled out by newbies, and both of the others are on a different fraction from nic. SAy this number was lowered, perhaps, completly, then the order would be at a severe disadvantage.
 Harry knows about the shadow spy capabilities, so any truly secret plans will be made in michaels house or on the island.
one coin is currently missing, while 2 are last seen in the underworld.
 Nic potentially has all the contained coin free.
 Harry has access to the well, one of the few places that could be capable of containing denarians. Even if they cant be secured permanently, i am bettin that it would hold them the longest possible time, centuries perhaps millenium..

[peregrine]

My question is why Harry's spell hurt Nic so badly.  We've seen him heal from gunshots to the chest quickly, but Harry's fastball to the ribs slowed him down dramatically.  Why didn't the noose protect him from the harm caused by Harry's snowball?

Because it was a huge amount of energy?  It didn't so much hurt him, but it hit him with a ton of force, that the noose does nothing about.  Bullets don't actually have that much total energy, it's just concentrated.  The noose does nothing to stop the laws of physics from applying to Nic.

[mid_life_crisis]

I think Michael was committed to ending him by that point.  He's smart enough to realize that ice wouldn't hold Nic forever once Anduriel set his attention to freeing him.

Except killing a helpless opponent whom he's supposed to be trying to save would be passing judgement, and we all know what that does to holy swords.

[peregrine]

Except killing a helpless opponent whom he's supposed to be trying to save would be passing judgement, and we all know what that does to holy swords.

No, killing a helpless opponent who has proven himself beyond redemption is the best time to do it.  No judgement required.  Especially if you can believe what Nic said about it being up in the air if Murphy had just murdered him instead of saying "Damn you."

[The Badger]

I hadn't considered this before.  You know the events of the end of Skin Game quickly spread amongst the fallen.  They (Nic and Anduriel) must have lost some serious credibility.

Do you think that the Fallen care that Nick broke his word to Dresden and Mab?  Not if he got the Grail as a result.

It is the OTHER supernatural entities which probably have the most problem.  But honestly, this was one of the least credible parts of the story.  It is not particularly believable that Nick did not betray his word many times in the past.  And a lot of his 'peers' are not monks trying to keep records.  They are long lived and Immortal beings!  They just remember.  So if Nick had ever done something like this, he was already toast credibility wise.

Or they ask the Archive perhaps what had been written about his before.  Cause she remembers EVERYTHING. (Another reason to take her out)

[The Badger]

The one point to consider is that you can't use the Nic we've seen so far to predict how he will act in the future.

Consider that Nic now is in a much different place. His secret of how the noose can be used against him is out. Anduriel's power has been revealed, and with it, a way to counter one of Nic's biggest advantages. Nic's following has never seen him take it on the chin like that in their lives. Setbacks, yes, but not to that degree. Nic's standing among the supernatural set has taken a huge hit. He no longer has a favor he can call in from Mab. His two biggest Denarian supporters are either dead (Deirdre) or now bitterly opposed to him (Tessa). He has trespassed into the Vault of Hades and could conceivably be on Hades' list of People To Do Bad Things To.

Old Nic had his secrets intact, his followers (mortal and Denarian), his Marker with Mab, and his reputation. New Nic has none of that. He's going to be different now. How he is different, remains to be seen. He could become reckless, fearful, overly cautious, etc. It'll be interesting to see if/how Jim decides to shape Nic going forward.

These are good points.  I thought when Nick torqued off the Archive he was toast, particularly when you consider that his minions needed to write things down constantly to 'chat'.

I doubt any intelligent person interacting with him would think Nick had a 'reputation'.  He was a Fallen.

I am not sure that Tessa is fully against her husband. After all, she stood next to him after Deidre died at Michael's house.  Plus they aren't necessarily totally in the driver's seat.  The Fallen have a say in Nic and Tessa's choices.

BUT...Nick now has the Grail.  That has to mean something.  That he wanted MORE was never in doubt.  What he got was bad enough.

[Tami Seven]

Nic has a plan, a scheme of some kind. This time it's not something 'stupid' like start a plague. This time he's serious bout it and will probably be very patient in implementing it, even if he has to do all the work himself.

We may not see him fro some tie, but I bet by the time of the BAT, we will see him again and he will be in the thick of it.

One thing he may set his sights on, is trying to retrieve all of the relics from Harry. How he might go about it, I have no idea, but after everything he did, everything he sacrificed, he's not going to just give up on them.

[King Ash]

Nic and the fallen are known liars and cheats, Shiro mentions that they cheated in accords sanctioned duels, the idea that the immortal world will suddenly not trust him doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[Acalanthis]

From what I remember, Shiro never mentioned that those duels he had explicitly with Denarians involved were ever Accord-sanctioned.  Even if they were, how would that work?  I was under the impression that both combatants had to be members for that to happen, and the Knights were never part of the Accords.