Should magic circles somehow be more sturdy by default?

[WadeL]

I've been re-reading the books, and it seems that blocks are kind of a poor way to represent magic circles in some ways. Harry never really seems to worry that a monster might breach his circle through sheer might - his concern is always things like staying away or inside the circle or the like. And when he concludes something has been hidden away by a practitioner, he seems to be like "Oh, I guess magic won't find it, not even the Senior Council" - I'm guessing because it is probably inside a circle or the like.

Anyway, circles seem pretty much invincible in the fiction and are relatively fast to put up. It is more of a magical law than anything. But in DFRPG you'd handle it with a block...and, well, Thaumaturgy really is a matter of "Who wants to spend more time on it?" You can muster 10 shifts into your circle? Surely someone else can muster 11 with a tracking spell, etc. And even when going against mundane monsters, some of them aren't hard-pressed to breach 10 or so on a Might check to break something, whereas 10 feels like it should be a fairly solid circle...

Any thoughts?

[Haru]

It's the old saying of the "death of a thousand tiny cuts". If it has a number, it can be killed.

So these things don't get a number. If the wizard player says "Hey, I do a gigantic 50 shift ritual to find the thing", it's absolutely valid to say no. It's behind a circle that blocks out all magic, it can't be found by magical means, you'll have to find another way (here's a fate point for your trouble). The same goes for supernatural beings trying to break a circle. The circle keeps them out by magical means, so they can't just use, for example, their superior strength to break through it. They may be able to will themselves through, but they'll often not have nearly enough power there as anywhere else.

Basically, you don't have to create a "block:X" circle, you can simply create a magic circle aspect and reinforce it's narrative impact. If the novels say anyone can draw a circle to cut off magical energy, that's what they do. If a spirit wants to enter the magic circle, he can't, cause he's a spirit. You wouldn't let a human roll on gnawing through a concrete wall, because it's just not going to happen. I see this situation pretty much the same.

[WadeL]

Basically, you don't have to create a "block:X" circle, you can simply create a magic circle aspect and reinforce it's narrative impact. If the novels say anyone can draw a circle to cut off magical energy, that's what they do. If a spirit wants to enter the magic circle, he can't, cause he's a spirit. You wouldn't let a human roll on gnawing through a concrete wall, because it's just not going to happen. I see this situation pretty much the same.

I guess I just wish the book said a little bit more about it? When I was rereading the Dresden Files, the whole thing about magic circles seemed pretty central to a lot of stuff, but since it had been some time since I'd read the books I never would have remembered that.

It actually seems in the books there are a couple of ways to stop some Thaumaturgy dead. Can't really beat through a magic circle for a lot of stuff (although it doesn't seem to protect against long-range attacks - Dresden never thinks of hiding in a circle for Storm Front, for instance). Can't do tracking or magic at a distance at all without some sort of link to the target - the book sort of says that, but most people seem to play it more as "oh yeah, having a strand of someone's hair is worth an aspect to invoke for that Thaumaturgy roll", when in actuality in the fiction without that link it is just impossible.

I've seen folks complain about the power of Thaumaturgy and how it can do everything. It would seem that if we actually had a list of some of the "Thaumaturgy can't do this" stuff, it might quell a lot of those concerns.

[Taran]

You actually can't do most thaumaturgy without some kind of link. period.  I think it mentions that in YS.

If someone has evo-thaum, I allow *sight* as a link.
Buffing yourself is easy because you're your own link.

You can do indirect stuff with thaumaturgy without a link but not specifically target people.

[dragoonbuster]

I'm with Haru. Don't muck around with numbers if you're in a situation where something simply can't get through a circle, or magic, or whatever.

This is where/why invoking aspects for effect is important. If the GM feels like being a little more of a ball-buster they'll consider it a compel vs some aspect on the monster/spell trying to get in, and then that NPC gets the FP you spend on your invoke. Otherwise....circles are one of those weapons you have against the nasty stuff.

And if the GM really needs to break that circle...well, that's what compels are for. "Oops, windy day, leaf blows over your circle and breaks in....roll for defense against the demon trying to eat your face."  In fact...I recall more or less exactly that being the scenario in Storm Front--Harry runs to his circle in his basement to get away from the toad demon but it's covered with crap and he can't activate it.

And Taran's right...you need that link for most thaum, period. "As above, so below"--thaumaturgy is defined through its use of links to cause an effect on a small scale to affect things on a larger scale.

[Amelia Crane]

In fact...I recall more or less exactly that being the scenario in Storm Front--Harry runs to his circle in his basement to get away from the toad demon but it's covered with crap and he can't activate it.

Not quite.  Harry runs to his circle and cleans it off and empowers it with his will with himself and Susan inside.  But that leaves him trapped in a circle.  To get out he had to bargain with Bob to toss him the escape potion.  He had to break the circle to catch it and quickly share the potion with Susan to escape.

(click to show/hide)

I went to the far end of my lab table and started kicking boxes, bags, notebooks, and old paperbacks off the floor. “Help me clear this floor space. Hurry!”

She did, and I cursed the lack of cleaning skills that had left this end of the lab such a mess. I was struggling to get to the circle I had laid in the floor, a perfect ring of copper, an unbroken loop in the concrete that could be empowered to hold a demon in-or out.

...

I heaved a bunch of empty cardboard boxes aside as Susan frantically tossed some papers away, exposing the entirety of the copper ring, about three feet across. I took her hand and stepped into the circle, drawing her close to me.

...

I leaned down, touched the circle with the tip of my staff, and willed power into it, to shut the creature out. The circle sprang up around us, a silent and invisible tension in the air.

Something splattered and hissed against the air a few inches from my face. I looked up to see dark, sputtering acid slithering off the invisible shield the circle’s power provided us. Half a second earlier and it would have eaten my face off. Cheery thought.

I tried to catch my breath, stand straight, and not let any part of me extend outside the circle, which would break its circuit and negate its power. My arms were shaking and my legs felt weak. Susan, too, was visibly trembling.

The demon stalked over to us. I could see it clearly in the light of my staff, and I wished that I couldn’t. It was horribly ugly, misshapen, foul, heavily muscled, and I compared it to a toad only because I knew of nothing else that even remotely approached a description of it. It glared at us and drove a fist at the circle’s shield. It rebounded in a shower of blue sparks, and the thing hissed, a horrible and windy sound.

[dragoonbuster]

Not quite.  Harry runs to his circle and cleans it off and empowers it with his will with himself and Susan inside.  But that leaves him trapped in a circle.  To get out he had to bargain with Bob to toss him the escape potion.  He had to break the circle to catch it and quickly share the potion with Susan to escape.

(click to show/hide)

I went to the far end of my lab table and started kicking boxes, bags, notebooks, and old paperbacks off the floor. “Help me clear this floor space. Hurry!”

She did, and I cursed the lack of cleaning skills that had left this end of the lab such a mess. I was struggling to get to the circle I had laid in the floor, a perfect ring of copper, an unbroken loop in the concrete that could be empowered to hold a demon in-or out.

...

I heaved a bunch of empty cardboard boxes aside as Susan frantically tossed some papers away, exposing the entirety of the copper ring, about three feet across. I took her hand and stepped into the circle, drawing her close to me.

...

I leaned down, touched the circle with the tip of my staff, and willed power into it, to shut the creature out. The circle sprang up around us, a silent and invisible tension in the air.

Something splattered and hissed against the air a few inches from my face. I looked up to see dark, sputtering acid slithering off the invisible shield the circle’s power provided us. Half a second earlier and it would have eaten my face off. Cheery thought.

I tried to catch my breath, stand straight, and not let any part of me extend outside the circle, which would break its circuit and negate its power. My arms were shaking and my legs felt weak. Susan, too, was visibly trembling.

The demon stalked over to us. I could see it clearly in the light of my staff, and I wished that I couldn’t. It was horribly ugly, misshapen, foul, heavily muscled, and I compared it to a toad only because I knew of nothing else that even remotely approached a description of it. It glared at us and drove a fist at the circle’s shield. It rebounded in a shower of blue sparks, and the thing hissed, a horrible and windy sound.

Ah, fair enough. Curse my brain. Regardless, they were totally protected against the (admittedly-weaker-due to-threshold-crossing) demon inside the circle...He had to get out or it would have destroyed everything around the circle. It wasn't a function of Harry's will or the demon's strength.

[WadeL]

Ah, fair enough. Curse my brain. Regardless, they were totally protected against the (admittedly-weaker-due to-threshold-crossing) demon inside the circle...He had to get out or it would have destroyed everything around the circle. It wasn't a function of Harry's will or the demon's strength.

Yeah, it clearly isn't a thing where he has to struggle to hold it together like he does for his shield. It is less of a spell, more of a law of physics. And one we also know unempowered mortals can also use to their advantage.