Sponsored Magic and at the speed of Evocation?

[citadel97501]

Hello all,

I was wondering something about "at the speed of Evocation", are you allowed to generate power the same way you would with Thaumaturgy or do you have to do it the same way as evocation, ie no real prep time?

[Taran]

exactly like evocation.  You use conviction to draw up power and control with discipline and no prep time.

It's just the type of spell that changes.

[AstronaughtAndy]

It basically means that you can do evocations that are more than just "magic shotgun" or "magic bulldozer."

[MadAlchemist]

Also very useful for people who don't have another form of blasty magic or who specialize in Thaumaturgy heavily. Since it gives you the ability throw entropomancy or biomancy ect. curses like Harry throws fire and using your Thaumaturgy specs. and Foci. I consider it pretty awesome. It means, I think, that you can even use say entropomancy to make an attack with a weapon rating, block, armor or any of the other nifty stuff you can do with that type of magic specifically that you can pull the power for in one exchange. You should even get to use Fallout when you do instead of being forced to take Backlash.

[dragoonbuster]

Also very useful for people who don't have another form of blasty magic or who specialize in Thaumaturgy heavily. Since it gives you the ability throw entropomancy or biomancy ect. curses like Harry throws fire and using your Thaumaturgy specs. and Foci. I consider it pretty awesome. It means, I think, that you can even use say entropomancy to make an attack with a weapon rating, block, armor or any of the other nifty stuff you can do with that type of magic specifically that you can pull the power for in one exchange. You should even get to use Fallout when you do instead of being forced to take Backlash.

That's how I read "with the speeds and methods of evocation." E.g., you can make in-conflict Blocks, Attacks, Maneuvers and Counterspells with thaumaturgic techniques like conjuring or what-have-you. The term "methods" is what does it for me, since each section for Thaum/Evocation has a "What You Can Do With It" section. I read evothaum's definition to be "you can use thaumaturgic concepts in the same way you would evoke an element." So you use evocation mechanics, you just narrate more complex things evocation normally can't do (as the book says, use the evothaum mainly to expand the what you can narratively justify in combat).

So instead of sitting down in your lab in a circle and taking the time to really conjure a sword that'll last until it's countered, you're in a battle, stalk towards the bad guy, shout a word as you swing your arm down at him, and a sword appears in it just in time to slash their chest before it disappears again (Weapon: X Attack). You whip your head back away from his riposte just in time (dodge), then decide you need a little defense. So you say another spell and a conjured wall of thorns rises up between you and the enemy, pushing in extra energy to have it stick around a bit longer (Block: Y for a few exchanges). It's still "battle magic" and doesn't last a long time, can't be overly complex (i.e. can't lay down a handful of aspects with one maneuver), etc. but it can be used to make justifications you otherwise couldn't with just "fire blast" or what have you.

[MadAlchemist]

I think you could stack several Maneuvers into a single Evo-Thaum casting. It would be ludicrously expensive to try on any but the weakest enemies and/or more than two aspects, since you would have to pull all of the power for it at once. Part of the benefit of a Sponsor is that they can handle some of the more complex elements of the spell for you. Even self-sponsored stuff seems to be more complex, at least thematically.   

[Sanctaphrax]

...it gives you the ability throw entropomancy or biomancy ect. curses like Harry throws fire and using your Thaumaturgy specs. and Foci.

Well, maybe. The rules aren't clear about that.

It means, I think, that you can even use say entropomancy to make an attack with a weapon rating, block, armor or any of the other nifty stuff you can do with that type of magic specifically that you can pull the power for in one exchange.

Eh. I wouldn't allow that. But I guess the rules are vague enough that it's a valid take.

You should even get to use Fallout when you do instead of being forced to take Backlash.

You can always take fallout with Thaumaturgy.

[MadAlchemist]

You can always take fallout with Thaumaturgy.

Double checked and you are right. I knew there was a limitation on fallout with Thaumaturgy, any fallout and you lose the entire spell. The only real advantage of Evo-Thaum over regular Thaumaturgy would be the weapon rating attacks. Anyone with Thaumaturgy can crank out an effect in one exchange if they can power it. If I specialize in biomancy and want to slap an aspect on someone I can try to crank out enough shifts of power for a enfeeblement curse right then and there already. Thaumaturgy foci and specializations included. Sure that would take a bit but it's doable.
I wouldn't allow for the outside sources of power beyond the normal Evocation allowances and debt with Evo-Thaum though. 

[Taran]

Here's where the debate is:

If you are using evocation's speed AND METHODS, then shouldn't you use evocation foci/specializations?

If you are using Thaum specializations and foci, then shouldn't your attack spell be strictly like Thaumaturgy IE: a thaum attack spell only has accuracy.  It has no weapon rating.  Each shift put into a curse adds to the accuracy to resist - it does not add a weapon rating.

I wouldn't allow both.

This is how I do it and I know this is different than how some other people do it:

Your sponsored magic becomes a new element in evocation.  So, if you can do biomancy(like summer magic) at the speed and methods of evocation, you can take evocation foci: defensive Summer control/power; offensive Summer defense/control.

From that point it works exactly like evocation: weapon ratings, block, attack - exactly like evocation.  With the exception, that you could justify skill replacement spells with evothaum and, maybe, wards.

***

If  you are going to allow Thaumaturgy foci for you evothaum, then it gets weird.  Control stays control, but what about complexity foci?  do they become a stand-in for Power foci?

If you are going to allow Thaumaturgy foci for evothaum, I would have spells work exactly like thaumaturgy: no weapon ratings; Block are done as wards and can only be set up on thresholds or doorways/intersections; veils are immobile.

Otherwise, anyone with sponsored magic will throw all their foci into thaumaturgy and will be able to get twice the mileage out of those foci because they'll double as evocation foci.  Once you start piling on refinements, things will break down quickly.

[MadAlchemist]

Here's where the debate is:

If you are using evocation's speed AND METHODS, then shouldn't you use evocation foci/specializations?

If you are using Thaum specializations and foci, then shouldn't your attack spell be strictly like Thaumaturgy IE: a thaum attack spell only has accuracy.  It has no weapon rating.  Each shift put into a curse adds to the accuracy to resist - it does not add a weapon rating.

I wouldn't allow both.

This is how I do it and I know this is different than how some other people do it:

Your sponsored magic becomes a new element in evocation.  So, if you can do biomancy(like summer magic) at the speed and methods of evocation, you can take evocation foci: defensive Summer control/power; offensive Summer defense/control.

From that point it works exactly like evocation: weapon ratings, block, attack - exactly like evocation.  With the exception, that you could justify skill replacement spells with evothaum and, maybe, wards.

***

If  you are going to allow Thaumaturgy foci for you evothaum, then it gets weird.  Control stays control, but what about complexity foci?  do they become a stand-in for Power foci?

If you are going to allow Thaumaturgy foci for evothaum, I would have spells work exactly like thaumaturgy: no weapon ratings; Block are done as wards and can only be set up on thresholds or doorways/intersections; veils are immobile.

Otherwise, anyone with sponsored magic will throw all their foci into thaumaturgy and will be able to get twice the mileage out of those foci because they'll double as evocation foci.  Once you start piling on refinements, things will break down quickly.

I would't much argue with you if I was playing your game and you ruled that way. The discussion made me go over the R.A.W. again and I have changed my mind, on foci at least. (I re-read Madge's ring after way too long)
 I still think evo-thaum should use weapon ratings and such, you are supposed to be getting the best of both worlds, you're paying for it and giving up access to the high shift value effects that you can only pull off with regular thaumaturgy's access to outside power sources and time.   
Complexity does already cover for power when needed though.
Most of this only applies to stuff from these boards that I don't do without in my games; the self-sponsored, superior:Blah stuff. That is where you don't get a new and otherwise unavailable element/theme.

[potestas]

i think one of the biggest advantages is how long a spell will last, a shield spell could easily last 15 minutes or more and still have enough power to stop most moderate attacks. I htink 15 minutes is the minumum for thaumaturgy so at its base (if i am right) a shield done with evothuam would last 15 minutes and all your success could go into armor or block. not to bad really. And the effects you create on people or scenes are going to last better too. its really a nifty way to use magic i think.