Author Topic: Villians  (Read 5245 times)

Offline blgarver

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 543
  • There are three things all wise men fear...
    • View Profile
    • Video Samples
Villians
« on: August 31, 2007, 03:02:12 PM »
Anyone have any advice, or suggestions for books, dealing with creating a good villian?

My problem: usually make my villians too powerful, then don't know how to kill them or defeat them.

Thanks!
I'm a videographer by trade.  Check out my work if you're a writer that needs to procrastinate.  Not as good as Rhett and Link, but I do what I can.
http://vimeo.com/user1855060/videos

Offline Lord Arioch

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 148
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 05:38:57 PM »
Don't kill them.  If they are truly GOOD villains, you can use them again later.


as to the other, personality.  Think of some of the best villains.  Magneto is up there.  Of course, most would know Voldemort.  Sauron.  The Joker.  Sephiroth.


Rarely is evil for the sake of evil convincing.


I came across a rather good 'writing guide' online a while back and since he says it better than I... here it is.


It is about 3/5 down.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2007, 06:15:17 PM »
Don't kill them.  If they are truly GOOD villains, you can use them again later.
as to the other, personality.  Think of some of the best villains.  Magneto is up there.  Of course, most would know Voldemort.  Sauron.  The Joker.  Sephiroth.
Rarely is evil for the sake of evil convincing.

How are the Joker, Sauron or Voldemort not "evil for the sake of evil" in your view, then ?
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Dom

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • "I can't believe it's not Butters!"
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2007, 08:17:40 PM »
A good example of a villain that is not evil for evil's sake is Jacqueline Carey's Melisande.   Melisande love(d/s) the two main characters, and what she does she does not because she wants to destroy a nation, but because she feels it's for the good of the nation.  (Myself, I don't see Voldemort as a good villain--Snape was much better as a gray character than Voldemort as a villain.  Voldemort was pretty much evil-because-he's-evil.) 

Personally, I like villains that are 3D. Which, I think, is what a lot of readers want, lol.  I don't mind if a villain is all-evil...some people ARE just psycopaths...but I like them to be interesting.  For example, Terry Goodkind's Darken Rahl was a character I liked.  Too bad he was only used for one book; the replacement bad guy Jagang wasn't nearly as cool.

My own issue with creating villains is that I sympathize with them too much, and they become anti-heroes, lol.

I think a way to make them not as powerful is to carefully consider what powers they have, and their wants and needs.  For example, say your villain is...oh...an avid admirer of art.  Having that villain run around destroying everything will ultimately squelch innovation and creation, leading to a duller future for the villain.  If you make your villain intelligent enough to know this, he/she will rein in their own power just because they don't want to be lord/lady of a pile of burning rocks and barbarians that grunt and think stick figures in the dirt are art.  Or maybe your villain really loves their mummy and daddy or something...social pressures work on villains too.  "Don't you dare burn that village to the ground, Junior!  I WILL disown you!"  (of course, more subtle)

So I guess the trick is, give them human motivations, wants, and desires, and the intelligence to know fire-bombing everything isn't going to be productive to those needs.  Give them a good reason not to squish the hero like a bug. (key word being "good" reason; there's a lot of sucky ones out there!)

A thing that I consider is that even though a marathon olympic runner can do a whatever-yard run in X seconds flat, they can't run three races at one time. Similarly, even the best mage in the world can't coherantly multitask and track X number of enemies all at once.  Or maybe the best mage in the world CAN do that, maybe the best mages are defined not by how much power they can channel but how well they can multi-task, but they suck at battlefield tactics so if they can be lured out of their hold onto a battlefield, the hero's best general or something can get 'em physically.  Or something.  A wise leader (even an evil leader) knows their strengths and weaknesses, and looks to shore the weaknesses up.  But they *will* have weaknesses, which *doesn't* negate the fact that they have strengths too.  It's up to you as an author to seriously consider what their weaknesses are, and how the hero discovers them/stumbles upon them/etc so your hero can defeat the villain.  (And to make sure you don't fall into the lock-of-hero's-love-interest's-hair-ground-up-and-fed-to-villain-in-a-poison or something silly like that trap that provides a pseudo-plot to abduct the hero's love interest--those sorts of weaknesses are weak.  lol)

Here's hoping I make sense...
- has put $0.10 in the pun tip jar as of today.

Offline Magus

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 76
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2007, 10:41:10 PM »
That does make sense if you don't skim read like i do. A villian is everything you said Dom, and more. It all depends on how you want your villian to turn out.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Offline Uilos

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3537
  • The Snark Side of the Force
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2007, 04:44:45 AM »
Most of my antagonists are rarely "villains". Many of them have their motives and many of them believe that what they're doing is the right thing. There are also those who don't care what they do, they have no motive, they do it because it suits them, though to them, there is nothing sinister about it.

also, my main character's normally agree with what the antagonist thinks, but is opposed to the method they are using (normally violence)

A v
Quote from: Shecky
It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire 'tude, the lips acquire mouthiness, the glares become a warning. It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion.

Offline Lord Arioch

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 148
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2007, 06:37:44 PM »
How are the Joker, Sauron or Voldemort not "evil for the sake of evil" in your view, then ?



To, the Joker is just in it for fun.  He's just severely warped.  As to the other 2... well, I did say Rarely, didn't I? ;)

Offline Kiriath

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 172
  • We rise or fall...
    • View Profile
    • Sa Souvraya Niende Misain Ye
Re: Villians
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2007, 12:13:40 AM »
It might have been one of the Jim's-mentor-chain books which said "Make your antagonist more ruthless than your hero." :D

Villains are way more interesting when they're sympathetic or kind of sort of likable. Me and a friend have to mention Hannibal Lector in almost every conversation we have. He's nice... intelligent... friendly... but he eats people! Conniving subtle evil is more... compelling than bloodthirsty demonicism.

But they're all cool. :D
Dr. Juruna: What doth it profit a man to gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul?
Dr. Haas: Well, he profits by one entire world for starters...
A Miracle of Science

Bonded to the Traveler of the Ways

Offline blgarver

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 543
  • There are three things all wise men fear...
    • View Profile
    • Video Samples
Re: Villians
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2007, 04:32:15 AM »
Thanks guys, reading this stuff makes the gears start working, and I think I figured out what's wrong; my villian was just evil because she's evil.  The whole good vs evil because that's what good and evil do, type of thing. 

Well, now I gave her a REASON for doing what she's doing.  And I've done that with the other characters as well, and the rewrite is going to be something with a much more definate direction than this slightly disjointed first draft.  I still like the first draft,  but the characters are going to be much more potent in the next go round.

I'm a videographer by trade.  Check out my work if you're a writer that needs to procrastinate.  Not as good as Rhett and Link, but I do what I can.
http://vimeo.com/user1855060/videos

Offline Lord Arioch

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 148
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 07:46:14 AM »
that's what 1st drafts are for. ;D

Offline sights unseen

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Villians
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 02:35:11 PM »