Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 7 of 8"

[iago]

The Sixth Law Is: Never swim against the currents of time.

http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/08/the_laws_of_mag_4.php

[finarvyn]

Nice write-up.

Little examples of speeding up or slowing down time are fine, as they are not likely to have long-range effects.

I agrree that actual time travel is really tricky, and that the best thing to do is to avoid it entirely. If a GM does want to use time travel, I would suggest that they plan ahead and prepare a careful timeline so that they can figure out potential side effects of timestream interference.

And find ways to make changes that will surprise the players.

Some inspirational viewing for this kind of thing might be the first couple of seasons of Sliders where the characters visit different Earths that each have little tweaks and variations from the true Earth. Simon Hawke wrote a series called Timewars that details a time police trying to fix broken timelines. There are quite a few other shows and books if a person wants to see examples of how to make time travel work.

Or just make the White Council rule with a heavy hand. That's probably the best idea of all!

[kavius]

This law really excites me. I am currently playing a game that revolves around time travel. Due to some quirky antics of a "chronomancer", the characters have been charged with putting a stop to the whole fiasco (the chronomancer asked us to assasinate him before he invents the time machine).

One thing that I find disapointing about our game is the lack of paradoxes. The GM has decided to ignore certain potential paradoxes, but this has become necessary for the game to flow. By this point, I have received tools, which I have then prevented myself from gathering later in the game, but still have the tools. Basically, the GM has said he is ignoring paradoxes that are inconvenient.

One of the difficulties in the game has been judging what effects the GM will put into play, and which he feels he has to ignore. This is compounded by the fact that two of the players have a studied understanding of theoretic time travel and time communication. Often there are disapointed looks on players faces when they realize how the GM is handling the effects of a situation.

On the other hand, he has done a brilliant job of having the things we do in the past cause effects on our future. Several species are extinct (we did some hunting in the Pleioscene era), WWII had a different outcome (our magic user took offence to and flattened a concentration camp), and our nemesis in the game (a character invented on the spot because one of the players was being a little cocky) is King of the world in the future.

A time travel adventure can be a lot of fun, but difficult to manage. I agree that players should really talk that through with one another before someone just up and starts hopping through time. Having said that, if the GM is prepared for it and has some idea of how he is going to deal with potential problems that arise, it can be a lot of fun.

[hollow49]

I suspect that rather than sending oneself back in time, one is more likely to encounter a chronomancer being guided by his future self (the classic "bootstrap" scenario) as it is probably easier in terms of raw power. Hints from Proven Guilty imply that even this can cause dangerous paradox.

On a different note, I doubt that there is any violation of the law in simply changing the rate at which time passes, as there is no risk of a paradox from doing so. Whether this is possible outside of the NeverNever is uncertain, but Faerie is notorious for changing the rate of the passage of time. Possibly a wizard might be able to find some pocket of the NeverNever and affect the rate of time therein, either to accelerate it (to spend a week studying while only an hour passes on Earth) or slow it (to wait a day inside to stay hidden from your enemies for a year on the outside, hoping they'll give you up for dead).

Personally, I don't think there's likely to be much meddling in outright time travel in any Dresden game I play - it's too powerful if paradox is downplayed, and too lethal if it's ramped up. But subtle hints coming from cautious future selves through Hindsight might be a good way for the GM to guide the players into a plot - if you have the Aspect Hindsight, the GM could drop all manner of odd, ambiguous messages as compels in all kinds of situations, and it would be a good justification for turning up at the right place in the nick of time...

[Kristine]

Since there is not reference in the stories so far about someone breaking this law and the consequences there is nothing for sure that can be said is cannon other than it is dangerous. The most obvious references I can think of would be the "Back to the Future" movies for you pop culture fiends and the classic story "The Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury. Or for you who prefer the more thoroughly explored side of simply sending a message try 'Thrice Upon A Time' by James P. Hogan, the movie "Sliding Doors" for you English film fans.

You also have the theory that any major change in time would cause the time stream to create splinters (rivlets?) that try (through probability) to get back on track with the whole.  These splinters would weaken the whole and make it unstable, but they could happen without taking the entire world down.  Maybe time could punish you by making the changes unstable so that the character feels like they are going insane - one minute the change has occurred, but in the next blink it hasn't, you don't know from one minute to the next what reality you are in - you shift randomly in and out of the splinters.

just a thought...

[Bjorn74]

Robert Heinlein's Time Travel stories would be good references, especially "All You Zombies---".  He played with paradoxes and the idea of a Time Corps to fix things gone awry.

[Kristine]

I wonder if the Gatekeeper acts as a Time cop per se?

[DrygonDM]

I see a lot of GMs simply ignoring this Law.

Or enforcing it harshly:
- Warden Traps tipped off by the Gatekeeper
- The PCs age very rapidly when in an Alternate Time Zone: 1 hour there = 1 year older.
- PCs trapped in Alternate Timeline - Permanently.
- PCs trapped in Time Loop
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For those that have read DC's Crisis On Infinite Earths - try and imagine if there had not been a Monitor to tell everyone what the Threat was, and which "Earth" any given Hero was from?

Some Heroes - Like Superman - would not have cared, and would have worked side-by-side with each other to try and figure out how to end the threat. 

Some would simply ignore and avoid the other alternate selves, unless absolutely needed - Like Batman. 

Others would have most likely ended up fighting each other, if not shown a greater threat immediately - I could name names, but that list is a little long.... 

And consider this, all the DC Villians would have still worked together to get ride of all the Heroes, and then fought each other as to who got to be The Villian King of the Mountain.
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Properly handled, and with the help of the Players, this could be closer to the Back To The Future movies.

It is difficult to pull off - especially since the GM has to pre-plan for as many Alternate Outcomes as possible in advance. The GM also needs to have ways for the Players to figure out how their Characters are to fix what went wrong, then go back and try and fix it, while dealing with Old Baddies (and maybe New Baddies and/or Time Traveling Baddies) and at the same time always avoiding their Past Selves!

And in the meantime, their Character is "M.I.A." in the "Current Timeline" - and the Wardens are going to be very interested in where you have been while you were "away"....

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

If you really wanted to play a campaign with time travel, the various ways it could work and consequences thereof have been done in more impressive depth and detail in the GURPS Time Travel book by John M. Ford than anywhere else I've seen,

[harleshade]

Time travel is a very tricky thing and that is why the Council is so harsh on it. I mean even the gatekeeper only hints at things and he is in a position that puts him outside the flow of time in it general understanding.