Author Topic: Killing renfields with magic  (Read 18579 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2014, 05:20:19 PM »
and then harry convinced he she fucked up and she believed she did, up til lthen she was fine
Not in the books, no.  Maybe in your world / in your game.


Offline potestas

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2014, 05:56:49 PM »
Potestas, it's cool your own games have different setting rules. Mine do, too, in certain places. But in particular because this discussion is about whether or not the Wardens would regard the killing of renfields with magic as a violation of the Laws of Magic, and therefore is firmly based on what we've seen on their attitude in the books, I don't think it's really relevant whether or not the White Council is correct about the changing effects of magic on a person who mis-uses it.

After all, the Wardens were perfectly ready to execute a teenage girl for using magic to steer a guy away from drug use.

i have bee n arguing from evidence in the book that it isn't so using that to justify the change in the game.Wardens willingness to obey the law doesnt change the fact that using magic in a way the law forbids doesn't change you at least there is no evidence of this only what people say who already believe the law is correct. In all the books we have evil people using magic to work evil ends, we don't know that the magic did this to them we only know the wardens believe this, that dresden believes this. Dresdans intenral stuggle has more to do with his issues then the fact he killed justin with magic. So in my game based on what i have seen in book, ones intent and action is what makes a lawbreaker.Not the action on its own.

Offline MijRai

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2014, 06:01:58 PM »
I dont recall anywhere where it was said he was killed with what you just mentioned. He was taken out by wizards i assume magic. He had a horde of things serving him so i assume they brought all their resources to bear, but to make sure he was dead and stayed that way..a spell would be my guess.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1879.msg37967.html#msg37967

Straight from the author himself.  It also goes on to mention that the consequences from breaking the Laws of Magic aren't just people in gray cloaks, and it doesn't have anything to do with Right or Wrong. 

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many people have argued the laws are more then mortal. I just don't see any real evidence that they are. Harry thinks they are;  his enemies don't. Sometimes mortals are monsters too and they deserve the same treatment any monster gets.

See above quote.  The great and mighty author specifically mentions that there's the Laws of Magic, the mortal construct, and the metaphysical 'Laws' of Magic.  Also, read the books.  It's explicitly shown that breaking the Laws changes you in pretty bad ways. 

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I think Harry had problems before he killed Justin, I don't think it was the fact that he killed Justin. Harry is probably unstable from his upbrining and from what Justin did to him. Not the magic but the base betrayal it represented. Harry has never been in a good place. Fortunatly hes a good person. Its like Urial told him its his choice. he can choose to be a monster servant to mab or a human servant to mab. Humans are allowed almost universally the right of self defense in all ethical systems, it is considered moral to do so. Why would the laws of magic(if they are the wizards version of an ethical code) not be the same as all the other ethical systems out there. Essentillly you have a right to self defense unless your a wizard then you have to fight the mortals on their own ground with their best weapons. I dont think so. Buttttttt.

Your World, close to page 134, has Harry Dresden's stats.  He has the First Lawbreaker power.  He got his problem with dark desires and violence right there. 

The aforementioned links strikes again; Right and Wrong don't come into the Laws.  Whether or not it's Right to kill a person with magic is irrelevant. The White Council's enforcement of the Laws does allow for Right and Wrong to affect them; when the metaphysical ones come into play, you're still tainted.

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The real reason(my conjecture here) the laws are the way they are is when you violate them you strengthen the outsiders. That is reason enough to not violate the laws of magic and it is different from the "given" reason for violating the rules of magic. Somewhere along the way Merlin wrote the laws down because it was he who figured out what happened when you do. I bet prior to Merlin writing down the laws and enforcing them( and he could because his power was or is equal to that of one of the queens)(wiki) i bet people broke them whenever it suited them and it didnt do anything to them, except break down the walls between reality.Most wizards don't even know about the war with the outsiders. Wizards are human they get choice and free agency and that includes choice to use good things for bad. Execpt when wizards do it there are bigger consequences. I bet if enough wizards misuse magic things just slip in, no one notices it. Even the wizard who kills in self defense weakens the barrior. His individual act, one that he may only have had to do once in his entire life (not all live dresdens life) but its  chink. Nothing happens to the wizard he was a good person doing a good act, but using the only tool he really has in a manner that does harm to boundries. He doesnt know it he will probably never know it.

That's your theory, I've seen ones like it before, and there's both merits and flaws in it.  Of course, it could have that effect because twisting the forces of Life and tainting yourself is what gives the power to Outsiders.  It's still irrelevant in regards to the Laws. 

I don't remember anything in the books suggesting that Merlin had the power of an archangel (which is rated as equivalent in the 'who could take Mab on in a fight' thread).

The Laws, as previously stated by Jim and in the books, do things to you.  Self-defense or no, good reasons or no, taint occurs.  The true 'why' of this is unknown.  Your theory might be a part of it, it might be something else.  It still happens. 

'You bet' isn't really relevant to the discussion.  They're assumptions; with the lack of even circumstantial evidence, they don't come up to the level of assessments. 

Also, you keep mentioning a wiki.  Wikis aren't a reliable source of information.  I suggest checking out the sources for said page and referencing them. 

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I think merlin figured this out. I think its one of the reasons he built the prison wrote the laws, formed the council, its all a part of the war against the outsiders. And if he had to lie to make people follow it so what. The stakes are to high, at least he thought so.

Seeing as the RPG only goes up to Small Favor, I suggest spoiler-tags on things referenced after that book.  See previous points. 

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You may say this is a quibble but its not, the given reason for breaking the laws of magic is it changes you into a monster more likely to get worse with each infraction. In story we have no real evidence of this. What we see is bad people using magic i n a way bad people would use it or any tool. In a self centered way theat benefits them.

In story we have multiple examples.  The Korean kid, Harry's darker urges, the Disciples of Kemmler, the porn-star sorceresses, Victor Sells, etc. 

i have bee n arguing from evidence in the book that it isn't so using that to justify the change in the game.Wardens willingness to obey the law doesnt change the fact that using magic in a way the law forbids doesn't change you at least there is no evidence of this only what people say who already believe the law is correct. In all the books we have evil people using magic to work evil ends, we don't know that the magic did this to them we only know the wardens believe this, that dresden believes this. Dresdans intenral stuggle has more to do with his issues then the fact he killed justin with magic. So in my game based on what i have seen in book, ones intent and action is what makes a lawbreaker.Not the action on its own.

Victor Sells is a very good example of someone going bad.  His wife spelled out what went wrong with him over time.  And again, read Harry's stat-block in Your World.  Lawbreaker is his main issue. 
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Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2014, 08:42:13 PM »
Wardens willingness to obey the law...

Is pretty much the point of the thread. Regardless of the corrupting nature of magic, or lack thereof, how would the Wardens react to 32 people being killed with magic?

Offline solbergb

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2014, 09:04:40 PM »
If it isn't the Blackstaff doing it, I imagine the wardens would be along to take the head of whomever did it.  The only way they would not is if it wasn't clear the cause of death was related to magic being used (it might be, it might not be, and maybe a soulgaze doesn't show signs of taint so they give the rare benefit of the doubt..)

Offline potestas

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2014, 04:17:36 AM »
 i disagree and i am leaving it at that. I;ve laid it out their isnt enough evidence eitherway other then what JB said and I disagree with him as well

Offline bobjob

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2014, 04:29:22 AM »
If it isn't the Blackstaff doing it, I imagine the wardens would be along to take the head of whomever did it.  The only way they would not is if it wasn't clear the cause of death was related to magic being used (it might be, it might not be, and maybe a soulgaze doesn't show signs of taint so they give the rare benefit of the doubt..)

I thought it was mentioned in Proven Guilty that someone from the Council will Soulgaze a potential warlock to see if the taint is there. I'll have to dig back through the book for a specific page number, but it was towards the beginning when Morgan did the old snickersnack. Heck, I even think it was the Merlin who did the soulgaze.
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Offline MijRai

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2014, 04:53:40 AM »
i disagree and i am leaving it at that. I;ve laid it out their isnt enough evidence eitherway other then what JB said and I disagree with him as well

So...  The author of the series, the architect of the setting, says something outright, and you 'disagree'?  Got it.
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Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2014, 10:40:57 AM »
So...  The author of the series, the architect of the setting, says something outright, and you 'disagree'?  Got it.

To be fair, when it comes to literary criticism I largely agree with the "Death of the Author" philosophy.  We're not really engaging in literary criticism, but trying to suss out how the mechanics of a fictional world work and work from a common baseline.  For that purpose, the views of the game designers and author carry quite a bit of weight (they don't have to be adhered to, but that would be a house rule or setting change based on your table).

Potestas seems to read the novels rather differently than I do.  He also wants a very different type of game than I do. 

Offline potestas

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2014, 11:55:56 AM »
To be fair, when it comes to literary criticism I largely agree with the "Death of the Author" philosophy.  We're not really engaging in literary criticism, but trying to suss out how the mechanics of a fictional world work and work from a common baseline.  For that purpose, the views of the game designers and author carry quite a bit of weight (they don't have to be adhered to, but that would be a house rule or setting change based on your table).

Potestas seems to read the novels rather differently than I do.  He also wants a very different type of game than I do.

I just dont think its clear wizards misusing magic does anything. And you hit it on the head my game is more magic intense .ive postest my disagreements with system and some of my mods and ideas wont repost them...on tablet hard to type

Offline Cadd

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2014, 01:52:00 PM »
I just dont think its clear wizards misusing magic does anything. And you hit it on the head my game is more magic intense .ive postest my disagreements with system and some of my mods and ideas wont repost them...on tablet hard to type

You have however claimed that killing with magic in self defence is ok in the later books, but not supplied an example. I think have a fairly good memory for the kinds of things happening in the books, but I can't recall a single time that a mortal has used mortal magic to kill another mortal, aside from The Blackstaff which is a specific exception, and it's been considered non-tainting.

Regarding them being mortal laws because Merlin wrote them - that's more along the way of Newtons laws. Merlin codified them into human understanding, and that informs how the Wardens act. The tainting is however more of a natural law.
Basically, mass in movement unaffected by a force will continue that movement whether Newton had written down his laws or not.
Similarly, killing a mortal with magic will taint a mortal killer, whether Merlin wrote down the law or not and whether a Warden comes to chop your head off or not.

Offline potestas

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2014, 02:42:13 PM »
You have however claimed that killing with magic in self defence is ok in the later books, but not supplied an example. I think have a fairly good memory for the kinds of things happening in the books, but I can't recall a single time that a mortal has used mortal magic to kill another mortal, aside from The Blackstaff which is a specific exception, and it's been considered non-tainting.

Regarding them being mortal laws because Merlin wrote them - that's more along the way of Newtons laws. Merlin codified them into human understanding, and that informs how the Wardens act. The tainting is however more of a natural law.
Basically, mass in movement unaffected by a force will continue that movement whether Newton had written down his laws or not.
Similarly, killing a mortal with magic will taint a mortal killer, whether Merlin wrote down the law or not and whether a Warden comes to chop your head off or not.
your restating the arguement: I am arguing that the people who are "corrupted" by it are not corrupted by it but were already bad people. In book we have no evidence of any type of progression from good to bad to downright insane evil. JB has never provided that. All we have is the wardens and the WC word that this happens.(and as evidence they show the corrupted person to us and then lop off his head aka korean kid)  Since they enofrce the laws that keep them in power of course they and their minions would believe this. Any speciific examples provided have shown people who are evil and nasty and some insane but none of the examples of shown a progress to this directly from magic. This leaves me enough room to A: believe there is more at work then we know (which is my guess as I have stated) and B allows me to allow my games to be run with a looser hand then a vanilla game and still maintain some ties to the series. You may not agree many dont, but the debate is long standing so I am not alone in this belief minority it may be.

Molly never got corrupted, HD never got corrupted, EB never got corrupted. They did what they did and did not become monsters. JB shows them struggling with ethical isues but we all struggle with those. If i am forced t o kill someone at somepoint in my life I will struggle with it for along time, but I am not a monster becasue of that one action nor am i predisposed to become a monster. This applies universally including magic. A monster is a person who chooses to go that route. And it wont matter if he weilds a knife or magic. you disagree cool, but i think this is the way the game should be played and I think its a solid interpretation of the books. Until we are shown a direct link of a good person slowly going bad. We dont have that.

JB may be able to do just this in that book hes coming out with...mirror mirror if thats the case then I wont argue that my interpetation of the books is correct as he will have clearly shown in book that it is not. But I will in my series ignore it.

ah and the reason I allow for this is I understand the humans can be the worst kind of monster, they choose it it. A vampire doesn't the fey dont. So I could argue that some humans dont qualify as human in regards to the first law. Marcone would be one of those. He's plain jane, but his soul is corrupted. He kills without remorse, or orders those in his employ to do the same. His actiivties isn't based on right or wrong but how it benefits or harms him. He is a monster. He can be killed outright with magic and the laws wouldnt apply.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 02:49:57 PM by potestas »

Offline MijRai

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2014, 04:46:34 PM »
your restating the arguement: I am arguing that the people who are "corrupted" by it are not corrupted by it but were already bad people. In book we have no evidence of any type of progression from good to bad to downright insane evil. JB has never provided that. All we have is the wardens and the WC word that this happens.(and as evidence they show the corrupted person to us and then lop off his head aka korean kid)  Since they enofrce the laws that keep them in power of course they and their minions would believe this. Any speciific examples provided have shown people who are evil and nasty and some insane but none of the examples of shown a progress to this directly from magic. This leaves me enough room to A: believe there is more at work then we know (which is my guess as I have stated) and B allows me to allow my games to be run with a looser hand then a vanilla game and still maintain some ties to the series. You may not agree many dont, but the debate is long standing so I am not alone in this belief minority it may be.

Molly never got corrupted, HD never got corrupted, EB never got corrupted. They did what they did and did not become monsters. JB shows them struggling with ethical isues but we all struggle with those. If i am forced t o kill someone at somepoint in my life I will struggle with it for along time, but I am not a monster becasue of that one action nor am i predisposed to become a monster. This applies universally including magic. A monster is a person who chooses to go that route. And it wont matter if he weilds a knife or magic. you disagree cool, but i think this is the way the game should be played and I think its a solid interpretation of the books. Until we are shown a direct link of a good person slowly going bad. We dont have that.

JB may be able to do just this in that book hes coming out with...mirror mirror if thats the case then I wont argue that my interpetation of the books is correct as he will have clearly shown in book that it is not. But I will in my series ignore it.

ah and the reason I allow for this is I understand the humans can be the worst kind of monster, they choose it it. A vampire doesn't the fey dont. So I could argue that some humans dont qualify as human in regards to the first law. Marcone would be one of those. He's plain jane, but his soul is corrupted. He kills without remorse, or orders those in his employ to do the same. His actiivties isn't based on right or wrong but how it benefits or harms him. He is a monster. He can be killed outright with magic and the laws wouldnt apply.

Again, Victor Sells is a good example.  His wife said he was a good husband, until he lost his job and got into dabbling with bad magic.  He went from a good father and husband to an abusive, cruel sorcerer hosting ritual orgies to power his murder-curses and his magical drug production.  The porn-star sorceresses are likely good ones as well, seeing as at one point the genial Genosa had married two of them.  And again, Molly and Harry, mechanically, have the Lawbreaker Power (around about page 123 and 134 of Our World, respectively).  The Corruption is there.  They are predisposed to becoming worse now, standing on a slippery slope.  Harry, as we've seen from his perspective, is almost constantly on that slippery slope, by the way.  Bringing up Eb is pointless, because, you know, he's the Blackstaff. 

I'd also say that killing Marcone with magic would still be breaking the Law.  The Kemmler take-down was with mundane weapons after they worked on negating his magic, against Kemmler.  The link I provided earlier mentioned guns, blades, ropes, and a flamethrower at the last attempt.  Marcone can still do a soul-gaze, and still has enough humanity in him to enforce a 'no hurting kids' rule.  Hell, he's got a child hurt in a cross-fire targeting him on life-support, and has literally gone against Denarians in an attempt to get an artifact that could help her. 
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Offline killking72

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2014, 01:48:15 AM »
You're completely right Mij. We have I believe a WOJ that says black magic does corrupt your soul.

I am arguing that the people who are "corrupted" by it are not corrupted by it but were already bad people. In book we have no evidence of any type of progression from good to bad to downright insane evil.
Yes we do. Look at
(click to show/hide)
That's a descent into darkness if I've ever seen one.
The first time you ever kill a deer when you're hunting, you freak the fuck out, but every subsequent deer kill makes you less sad, and is therefor easier to do. That's how black magic works. It just makes it a more viable option in your brain. Think about Harry relying on Lash.

Molly never got corrupted, HD never got corrupted.

Yes to both to some point. Think about how often Harry has had to fight down the urge to use his magic that shape the world to his will. That's the stain of black magic saying "do it". Think about Molly, even though she already knew it was bad, something in her head was whispering "just go into morgans mind and make him stop talking about Harry" All of those are examples of the corruption of Black Magic.


-Spoiler tag added - Mickey
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 01:19:26 AM by Serack »

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2014, 08:56:47 AM »
You're completely right Mij. We have I believe a WOJ that says black magic does corrupt your soul.
Yes we do. Look at Hannah Asher. She went from the same point Harry was at, killing to protect ones life, to killing more wardens to "protect her life", then to taking up a coin in vengeance against someone . That's a descent into darkness if I've ever seen one.
The first time you ever kill a deer when you're hunting, you freak the fuck out, but every subsequent deer kill makes you less sad, and is therefor easier to do. That's how black magic works. It just makes it a more viable option in your brain. Think about Harry relying on Lash.

Yes to both to some point. Think about how often Harry has had to fight down the urge to use his magic that shape the world to his will. That's the stain of black magic saying "do it". Think about Molly, even though she already knew it was bad, something in her head was whispering "just go into morgans mind and make him stop talking about Harry" All of those are examples of the corruption of Black Magic.

Woah, major spoiler!