Killing renfields with magic

[Wordmaker]

In the last couple of sessions my group make short work of a heavily-guard Black Court nest, taking out a total of 32 renfields, all of whom were killed with magic (burned with fire, sandblasted with coal dust and metal filings, and pebble-dashed with rocks). Yep, the two players responsible were happy to kill them.

Now, I've decided not to enforce the Lawbreaker stunt, given the mental damage done to the renfields by their masters.

But this group is already on shaky ground with the White Council, as two of their member had, in their backstories, been framed for violating the First Law and have, as a result, been on the run. They've currently managed to negotiate a deal for a retrial and re-investigation, having recently saved the world.

However, I'm thinking that the Wardens would come out in force against the group if they find out that nearly three dozen humans had been killed by the group, using magic to do the job. Even accounting for the fact their minds are gone, it ought to show a marked willingness to take human life on a massive scale.

Thoughts?

[Haru]

If they were caught red handed, the wardens might not take kindly to it and wait for an explanation. If they are investigating however, they should have cooled down enough to get into details. I'm fairly certain that Renfieldness leaves some sort of mark even on a dead body, that a wizard would be able to discover.

To me, a Renfield is nothing but a meat puppet. He's already dead, you can't kill him. All you are doing is destroy the animated shell. If you know that going in, it doesn't really constitute killing a human being anymore.

However, that's if they know they are Renfields. If they barged in and just killed everyone, because they assumed they were Renfields, that would mean they were willfully accepting that they might kill humans in the process. So it might come down to technicalities. Have you considered charging them with tax evasion?

So yeah, a very gray field. It might come down to outside testimonies. People they saved from the renfields, or maybe they got a marker with some powerful being they can cash in to vouch for them. Like Lily in PG. Or maybe such a being was waiting for an opportunity like that and is offering to vouch on their behalf, because it is impressed with them. No ulterior motive there, of course.

[MijRai]

I'm not going to throw out my opinion on the Renfield's humanity, since you've got your setting's stuff on it already.  However, I would say that it is likely the White Council finding out about dozens of dead human bodies slain by the PC's magic would end up as a Bad Thing, especially with the aforementioned framing/imminent retrial.  They might be able to skate by, they might get put on the Most-Wanted list, it's all up to you at that point. 

[Hick Jr]

Did Harry burninate any Renfields in Blood Rites? I think Murph and Kincaid handled all of them. If he didn't, it might indicate that it counts as a 1st Law violation. Or it might just be that Harry wasn't really comfortable with killing something that was still physically human, Renfield or not.

I'd have the Wardens freak out about it, but not in a way that involves them trying to kill the PC's. I'd just have it be a huge black mark on their records. I mean, thirty-two Renfields? That's mass murder, no matter how you slice it. The fact that they were even willing to kill that many things that were at least people-shaped should put a big dent in their "I would never violate the First Law" argument.

[potestas]

In the last couple of sessions my group make short work of a heavily-guard Black Court nest, taking out a total of 32 renfields, all of whom were killed with magic (burned with fire, sandblasted with coal dust and metal filings, and pebble-dashed with rocks). Yep, the two players responsible were happy to kill them.

Now, I've decided not to enforce the Lawbreaker stunt, given the mental damage done to the renfields by their masters.

But this group is already on shaky ground with the White Council, as two of their member had, in their backstories, been framed for violating the First Law and have, as a result, been on the run. They've currently managed to negotiate a deal for a retrial and re-investigation, having recently saved the world.

However, I'm thinking that the Wardens would come out in force against the group if they find out that nearly three dozen humans had been killed by the group, using magic to do the job. Even accounting for the fact their minds are gone, it ought to show a marked willingness to take human life on a massive scale.

Thoughts?

self defense is allowed No person wizard or not, has to sit passively by and be killed by anyone or thing. You may have to explain your actions but your not a lawbreaker. so i doubt anyone would consider it murder especially since WCouncil knows all about the abilities of the BC and what they do to humans. I really don't think the laws are as tight as alot of people want to play them. 

[blackstaff67]

Fine thralls might qualify as human, but since even the original Merlin could not reverse the damage done to a Renfield, yeah, I'd come down on the side of the party regarding Lawbreaker; so might the Wardens. 

Wardens will not be so generous regarding fine thralls, though--hope the party used mundane means to remove/neutralize them (speaking as someone who just got done re-reading Blood Rites).

[MijRai]

self defense is allowed No person wizard or not, has to sit passively by and be killed by anyone or thing. You may have to explain your actions but your not a lawbreaker. so i doubt anyone would consider it murder especially since WCouncil knows all about the abilities of the BC and what they do to humans. I really don't think the laws are as tight as alot of people want to play them.

Incorrect.  Killing a mortal with magic, regardless of the reason, still breaks the First Law (note, I didn't say murder, I said kill).  If the situation warrants it, you can get a stay of execution/probation sentence under the Doom of Damocles (which requires a patron) for self-defense and the like, but you still broke the Law, and bear the taint.  The question here would be whether or not Renfields are mortal anymore; the OP stated his table's decision already, so it's a moot point. 

Think of it like this; Harry Dresden killed a man with magic in self-defense at the age of 16.  At the age of 25, he's still got a Warden on his ass trying to find an excuse to kill him, the murderous urges brought upon by his previous killing, is under the Doom of Damocles, etc.  Said Warden continues to harass and suspect him for over a decade, while his reputation with the White Council still has him painted as a potential warlock (which is exacerbated by his continued skirting of the Laws).  He also continues to struggle with darker urges, on top of the temptations that tend to roll his way. 

Yes, the Laws are harsh, and the White Council is quite unforgiving if they catch you.  It's a major part of the setting, at least from the perspective of a person who had previously broken a Law and has seen the process, as well having joined the organization that enforces it (although not working on that aspect of the job). 

[Wordmaker]

Yep, our group has pretty clear separation between breaking the Laws in such a way that it taints your soul (taking the Lawbreaker stunt), and in such a way that the Wardens will sentence you to death. Accidental killing or killing something that's no longer truly human using magic doesn't get you the stunt at our table, but the Wardens are still likely to judge you.

Of course, the group were attacked and fought back without any actual evidence that their attackers were renfields...

[InFerrumVeritas]

self defense is allowed No person wizard or not, has to sit passively by and be killed by anyone or thing. You may have to explain your actions but your not a lawbreaker. so i doubt anyone would consider it murder especially since WCouncil knows all about the abilities of the BC and what they do to humans. I really don't think the laws are as tight as alot of people want to play them.

This is completely opposite what both the rule books and the novels present as cannon. 

[Quantus]

Given the fact that centuries of effort have failed to reverse the Renfield transformation, Id personally classify them as supernatural creatures that just happen to use Human's for Raw materials, like a Zombie or various Vampire.  So I agree with the general table rule that doesnt allow it.

That being said there are two other points as I see it:  A) what do the Warden's (want to) think? and B) what does each party member think? 

A - Comparing the event to GP seems fair, and the Wardens couldnt prove or disprove that Harry had burned living mortals even though doubts were voiced; consequently he was not charged (or had his parole violated) so it appears that the Council technically operated under an "Innocent until Proven Guilty" mode even if "proven" can be a sketchy definition.  But if any of the party have specifically antagonistic Wardens in their past like Harry had Morgan, it could still cause conflict.  So even if they cant prove that they were all renfields, they could still get off WC justice.

B - If they think of the target as human, it will mess them up as if they were human.  Ebeneezer sees white Court as inhuman monsters, and so would likely not need the Blackstaff to kill one without consequences.  Harry considers them Humans born with supernatural parasites, thanks to his relationship with Thomas, and so would be far more conflicted

[potestas]

Incorrect.  Killing a mortal with magic, regardless of the reason, still breaks the First Law (note, I didn't say murder, I said kill).  If the situation warrants it, you can get a stay of execution/probation sentence under the Doom of Damocles (which requires a patron) for self-defense and the like, but you still broke the Law, and bear the taint.  The question here would be whether or not Renfields are mortal anymore; the OP stated his table's decision already, so it's a moot point. 

Think of it like this; Harry Dresden killed a man with magic in self-defense at the age of 16.  At the age of 25, he's still got a Warden on his ass trying to find an excuse to kill him, the murderous urges brought upon by his previous killing, is under the Doom of Damocles, etc.  Said Warden continues to harass and suspect him for over a decade, while his reputation with the White Council still has him painted as a potential warlock (which is exacerbated by his continued skirting of the Laws).  He also continues to struggle with darker urges, on top of the temptations that tend to roll his way. 

Yes, the Laws are harsh, and the White Council is quite unforgiving if they catch you.  It's a major part of the setting, at least from the perspective of a person who had previously broken a Law and has seen the process, as well having joined the organization that enforces it (although not working on that aspect of the job).

thats one interpretation. And may have been how JB wanted it when he started writing, but 15 books later and I think the interpretation has changed. Self defense seems ok in the later half of the series. And is fine in my games.

[potestas]

This is completely opposite what both the rule books and the novels present as cannon.

no its not, especially with the last part of the series. Moreover if we check out the dresden wiki, merlin is given credit for writing the laws of magic, in otherwords a mortal says its bad to kill with magic.

So what. hes only one mortal wizard who is either dead or imprisoned somewhere. Mortal law is only good if you can enforce it. Also i would argue further that the entire series is from the perspective of one wizard HD. JB has said this isnt the end all be all of the truth. It certainly is how he (HD) feels about the first law, but he is biased and it may not be the truth...just how he sees it.

So it might entirely be true that a wizard who believes there is nothing wrong with killing in self defense leaves no taint or scar because he believes that he did right by defending others or himself. He may have to argue with the white council about it and he would probably lose....but mortal law is only as strong as the mortals willing to enforce it..things change.

Meanwhile because he(the wizard) doesn'tt believe he is tainted and is doing the right thing he isnt tainted and is fine. (this is also how HD defines the universe so which is true( the belief thing HD always talks about)).

its not my wizards fault Dresden has an anger management issue that he blames on the fact he killed an asshat that was going to mentally bind him for all time. 

Oh and how do you think the wardens take down the warlocks who wont come quietly to their beheading. Granted they might use their swords only but honestly that isn't the only way, and kimler certainly was killed with magic.Self defense is allowed. You just have to make sure you do your self defense in a way the council likes. In otherwords mortal law is mutable and only matters if your on the outside looking in.

[killking72]

I believe the main reason the laws taint you is because you're using your magic to take free will away from a mortal. Now two things could have happened when they killed a renfield. They knew that they were basically alive zombies, because there's no harm in killing a reanimated person, and knew they werent people anymore, or option two; If they thought the renfields were still people, the very belief they were killing a mortal would be enough to taint them. I forget where exactly I read that, but it makes sense.

[potestas]

I believe the main reason the laws taint you is because you're using your magic to take free will away from a mortal. Now two things could have happened when they killed a renfield. They knew that they were basically alive zombies, because there's no harm in killing a reanimated person, and knew they werent people anymore, or option two; If they thought the renfields were still people, the very belief they were killing a mortal would be enough to taint them. I forget where exactly I read that, but it makes sense.

this is why there really isnt a debate as to the OP question. The renfields just dont count as human. The real debate is about if any killing of humans can be allowed.

[Taran]

Meanwhile because he(the wizard) doesn't believe he is tainted and is doing the right thing he isnt tainted and is fine. (this is also how HD defines the universe so which is true( the belief thing HD always talks about)).

Molly thought she was doing right when she brain whammied  that guy in an effort to break his addiction.