PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice

[Haru]

Well, the math holds up, but the wizard has already spent his 4th and 3rd mental stress box, so it's downhill from there. If there's more opponents in the fight, there's going to be a problem for him at some point.

In the fight you describe, I think I would have had the Denarian attack the wizard with all it got. The wizard is obviously the most dangerous opponent, and the Denarians are not stupid. If it was a powerful attack against 3 player characters, it should be a devastating attack against one.

There's also something to be said about the division of labor. Look at how Harry and Murphy enter any battle. Harry will protect the two of them, because his magic is better for that. At the same time, Murphy's gun will be effective against a lot of things that would otherwise be immune to Harry's magic. If you build the group looking at their respective roles, everyone will be able to shine, even if they don't do any attacking.

For example, the sorcerer will pretty much always be outclassed by the wizard, because he chose to basically create the same character but with less power. If he went for something like "sponsored magic: demonology", he could go for a whole different angle with his magic and do some amazing stuff with evothaum. He could even go for a bond with a demonic entity that grants him some other powers altogether, like strength, speed, etc.

The cop would fare far better in a social setting, I believe, so switching it up from physical conflicts from time to time will make sure he'll shine as well.

I don't really know what to do with the emissary, but Sanctaphrax seems to have taken care of that already.

[Taran]

I like Marked by power.  +1 to every social skill...

[bobjob]

True, but that goes both ways. You are a representative of your patron so speak with care.

[Theogony_IX]

How does something like this look?  Samson didn't really use traditional weapons so I went with a non weapons build.

Item of Power 1 [+2] (Breastplate Armor:1 against fists, claws, and sharp weapons)
   Inhuman Toughness [-2]
   Inhuman Recovery [-2]
      Catch [+2] (once holy items that have been profaned)
Item of Power 2 [No Discount] (Clawed Gauntlets - possibly connected to the breastplate by scale arm guards)
   Inhuman Strength [-2]
   Claws [-2]
Guide my Hand [-1]
Marked by Power [-1]
(Possibly) Infuriate Stunt [-1]
Total cost: -7

I'm a little confused about the Infuriate stunt.  From how it's worded in the books, it sounds like Provocation and Infuriate are only useful in a social conflict that eventually turns physical or to force it to turn physical.  If a player wanted to use it while already in a physical conflict, they would perform a social maneuver as their action for the turn, and then compel the aspect with a fate point to force the target to attack them?  Is that how you would do that?

[Taran]

They use it in a physical fight using their action.  I have a Tanky fighter with infuriate and I've used it several ways:

-As a social attack.  Usually as a lead-up to combat, which I tag consequences for effect to start fights.
-As a maneuver tagged for effect so they pick on me and no-one else.
-as a block.  Usually blocking all attacks except those targeting my character (essentially making my character the most viable option
- if the Gm allows, a block against all attacks. (To represent that they are so angry, they can't hit anything). I'm not sure I'd allow this in conjunction with infuriate, though.
- a block against movement ( they are so angry they will stay to fight instead of flee).
- I sometimes pass the tag the maneuvers to represent how the person is too distracted by my character that other people can hit them easier.

No FP .  Just use the free tags. 

He has toughness, recovery, high attacks and big damage.  I had one iteration of the character do nothing but taunt in fights while the wizards obliterated everything... I almost never got a chance to attack things.  In fact, having upgraded recovery(supernatural ) and a couple extra mild consequences was more important than  a strength power.

[Taran]

Double post

Regarding the build.
Claws seems like wastes refresh.  Just give him weapon2 gauntlets...something like a manopele would probably be weapon 1 or 2 anyways.  I'd upgrade recovery for that refresh or take a stunt that boosts his attack accuracy

Breastplate feels like armour 2 to me...

[Theogony_IX]

Those are good points.  I will sit down with him next time we meet and discuss it with him.  I'll see how willing he is to give up his offensive strength to make him a real tank.

[solbergb]

I don't see it as an either-or thing.   Here's a concept I had for a modern day version of Jacob, who wrestled Uzziel and won, skinned for a 30 skill 8 refresh game

5 athletic, might
4 conviction,fists
3 end, intimidate
2 alert, whatever you like
1 whatever you like

-2 Righteousness
-1 Holy touch
-4 SU toughness (not tied to human form, su stuff just slides off him)
+3 Catch (mortal weapons/fists without any supernatural assistance)
2 Human form (powers only manifest against supernatural opponents, to equalize.  This is a glow like that around Mouse's muzzle, it can't be hidden, can't be controlled and likely there are aspects to compel action against appropriate foes too.  Given the source we might have glowing, phantom wings, halo or whatever)
(minor talents with < 5 refresh of power get only inhuman levels of power, those with <3 refresh get only su strength, those with 1 or less refresh get only claws)
-4 SU strength  (human form limit means only for direct attacks on supernatural or to overcome obstacles separating you from such an enemy)
-1 Claws (same limits as strength)


This guy was built to be a wrestler, and do pretty significant stress in a grapple against a supernatural opponent.  If folks don't have powers his raw skills are generally plenty to win anyway.  For him, his powers were all about equalizing, so an ogre who didn't use his supernatural strength could punch him and bypass toughness, for example.   Without the desire for holy touch and claws you could fit in supernatural recovery, or eliminate the human form weakness, where he can't control his powers.

He's got fairly respectable offense (6 fists, 6-7 stress for strength-oriented attacks, 7-1=6 might, 5-6 stress in a grapple as supplemental action depending on if his opponent is affected by Holy Touch), he's pretty durable (high athletics plus su toughness against most high shift attacks, and nothing stops him from wearing body armor against mortal-weapon attacks), he's got intimidate for taunting and social attacks at a respectable level.   Should you need some kind of weapon to beat a catch or to handle a specific situation, turning on Righteousness lets you do weapons skill (or guns or drive or a social skill) with Conviction, and he can back it with SU strength.

[Taran]

That's an awesome use for human form.  Jaytee was looking for an 'equalizer' power and spent lots of time customizing, but this way is a very smooth way of doing it.

[solbergb]

I edited the above to explain it better.  Feel free to steal it.  I got the idea from the Sword of the Cross power, but skinned to not automatically work.  OTOH, it's better for dealing with things like a car dropped on you by an angry wizard, or escaping a grapple from Magog.

[Theogony_IX]

That's a pretty cool build.  The "transformation" is a nice thematic touch as the power of God bolsters him when in line with God's agenda.  Almost a sponsored magic type effect for physical powers.  I may indeed steal that.

Can you guys break down the rules justification for a +3 catch for things like people with free will and people with no supernatural powers.  That seems pretty high to me seeing that a powerful NPC or supernatural being can't get a hold of these easily and it doesn't sound like common knowledge.  I just want to check my catch adjudication skills.

[Taran]

Can you guys break down the rules justification for a +3 catch for things like people with free will and people with no supernatural powers.  That seems pretty high to me seeing that a powerful NPC or supernatural being can't get a hold of these easily and it doesn't sound like common knowledge.  I just want to check my catch adjudication skills.

+1 It requires research
+2 easily accessible (NPC's and supernatural beings can hire mortal goons to smack him.  Since those goons have free will and have no supernatural powers they count as a catch.)  There are lots and lots and lots of mortals around.


If a wizard, like Harry decides to shoot this character, it'll bypass the toughness.

Edit:  I'm not sure what Sanctaphrax had in mind for "free will" but I assume it's anything with positive refresh would act as a catch.

[Theogony_IX]

Hired goons, right.  I suppose even a broke villain can hire some drug addicts or homeless for relatively little to throw some punches for them.  I can see the +3 then.

[Taran]

Some villains don't need to hire goons.  Mortals can be very, very dangerous.  Look at Marconi.

[solbergb]

Right.  Also the way I wrote the catch, a bad guy could just not use his supernatural powers.  A ghoul could head-butt him with normal strength instead of SU strength or claws (although in a ghoul case, it'd have to be one of those martial-arts or ninja ghouls who don't just fight with ferocity, otherwise the high concept is likely to be compelled).  A ghoul could also go get a fire axe or something and hit him, as long as he held back on the strength (same control he'd need to stay in human guise when a fight started)

Yes...Dresden could shoot him, hit him with a staff or punch him.  Of course then you're up against his athletics of 5 and formidable melee combat skills, so you're playing his game.  He still gets to hit Dresden for all his strength+claws because Dresden's got the power to zap him with magic for a zillion shifts.

Using a faerie make sword or something like that, he gets his toughness even if a mortal is swinging the weapon.