Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress

[Melendwyr]

"In the context of the entire series, it's clear that as wizards gain in skill, they learn how to get more out of less - specifically, they make their magical energy 'go farther' by using their energy more efficiently. "

Bingo. Look at Harry's description of Luccio's abilities with fire compared to his.

The only reason that's not a fantastic example of your point is that it's possible it's an example of high levels of Discipline and control bonuses adding to the effective damage of a strike - so there's an alternate explanation.  Luccio might be less potent and using skill to take the place of power.  But I agree that it's pretty strong evidence - if she wanted, Luccio could probably throw fireballs around, too.  And likely one of the reasons she doesn't is that she's conserving energy.

In the game, you don't get any benefit from using fewer shifts of power in a spell than your Conviction permits, assuming you can successfully control either level.  That's just something that we have to put up with because no system is perfect.  The fiction makes it clear that wizards and other entities have limits on how much energy they can usefully devote to magic, sort of like liquid fuel they're carrying around, and if they use that energy efficiently they can effectively do more with it.  So using a needle-thin stream of focused fire instead of a massive fireball to make something dead would be preferable if you had the skill to pull it off.

[Mickey Finn]

I need to clarify, that I actually haven't played the game. I'm weird...I need someone who knows the rules to run me through afew sessions before I get the system...at that point I can run things back and forth, but the initial understanding has to be through play, not a rule book. After that, I can go in and get the rules, easily. Yeah, I was hired to write for FASA, designed Falkenstein Paris and consult for Mana Punk but that was for games I already knew very well.

So anything I'm saying is off the books.

As to why I haven't played? No one I know and trust to run a game has run one. The Mana Punk guys I'm a consultant for (world building) run ...well, Mana Punk, as they're constantly refining and testing. Only other folks I know that run games are D&D types.

So I have to take your word on the system

[Mr. Death]

Please stop acting like you're ...x

This gets used a lot by various folks. On the surface, the wording looks like an innocent plea, but the way it gets used, repeatedly, suggests it is not. It's the passive aggressive version of snark. Snark is fun unless directed at another board member or a colleague of Jim's*, in which case it's not allowed.
So...please stop.

I did not mean it to be snarky, but I apologize for offending.

The only reason that's not a fantastic example of your point is that it's possible it's an example of high levels of Discipline and control bonuses adding to the effective damage of a strike - so there's an alternate explanation.  Luccio might be less potent and using skill to take the place of power.  But I agree that it's pretty strong evidence - if she wanted, Luccio could probably throw fireballs around, too.  And likely one of the reasons she doesn't is that she's conserving energy.

Yeah, Luccio's trick is probably the result of her body having a lot less power to work with (she's stuck with a low Conviction score she can't boost very much), and leaning on her two centuries of training to use it effectively (she was able to keep her high Discipline after the body switch).

In the game, you don't get any benefit from using fewer shifts of power in a spell than your Conviction permits, assuming you can successfully control either level.  That's just something that we have to put up with because no system is perfect.  The fiction makes it clear that wizards and other entities have limits on how much energy they can usefully devote to magic, sort of like liquid fuel they're carrying around, and if they use that energy efficiently they can effectively do more with it.  So using a needle-thin stream of focused fire instead of a massive fireball to make something dead would be preferable if you had the skill to pull it off.

Actually, now that I think of it, this reminds me of an idea I came up with to solve this same "problem" before I was convinced it wasn't actually a problem.

Instead of getting rotes for free, have it so that if you send out an evocation at half your effective Conviction for the element, it's free. As I recall, many of the same commentators here pointed out similar issues to what you're suggesting, but it might work.

I also came up with some rules for using attack evocations with duration a while back, which is a slightly different issue, but can also go toward longevity.

[vultur]

O.o No. I stat him up as more potent relative to everyone else's estimations, and it's fairly easy to give him Refresh enough to play with up until the Clusterfuck Trilogy (Changes-Cold Days). But those guys are basically their own major milestone boxes of chocolate. By Skin Game, he's definitely positive refresh.

IMO the only bit that requires a bit of fudging is the Winter Knight upgrade / big fight scene in Changes. Then he 'dies' and temporarily loses those powers, getting a ghost set instead for GS, which isn't especially impressive so probably not massive Refresh cost.

In CD he has no items, so probably dropped several points of Refinement to help pay for his WK powers. And I don't think he really has that much WK power on his sheet given that he mostly doesn't use the mantle to full effect and when it does he messes with him... the 50 foot jump and stuff is Temporary Powers, IMO. He probably only has Marked By Power, Unseelie Magic, Inhuman Strength and Inhuman Toughness with iron catch actually on his sheet ... 5 points of powers, and Changes and GS are at least one major milestone each, and he probably is missing 3 Refinements worth of items (staff, blasting rod, shield bracelet, force rings, duster, maybe Little Chicago) in CD.

CD is another major milestone, and in Skin Game he's spent that on a point of item Refinement to get his staff back.  (OK, it seems to also act like force rings, but he only uses that once and it could be just narration for a big spirit evocation blast using the staff as a focus. Or either Changes or CD could have counted as two major milestones, in which case he just has both a focus item and an enchanted item folded into one physical item.)

[vultur]

Slightly off topic, I was curious just how "Harry the PC" pulled that off. Did he let Lara place a maneuver on him with her powers and tag it, did she hit him with a consequence that he tagged himself?

(my bold)

That's my take - she used Incite Emotion as a maneuver on Harry, and passed the tag to him to use in his spell.

[potestas]

I agree with the OP, but getting some of the others to agree with will not work. Most of the long time players think the fate rules are good rules.

They do not reflect with any accuracy, what wizards can do in the dresden world, not even close. If you look you can find me posting similar arguments that you have posted. Most of the responses i get are of the kind that will force your characters refresh so high that he becomes unplayable. It is always yes you can do it but add some refresh. Before you know you have a a 15-20 refresh character just so he can do some of the stuff in game that dresden(who i think is a lousy wizard) can do. dont even try to do what the merlin can do.(if you recall he tossed up a ward on the fly that held off the entire red court, i think that included the King but cant remember. In any case it was truely impressive.)

Examples include the alphas, non magical people learning to do one spell that harry dresden cant do and you could never do with thaumaturgy or evocation in game in any meaningful way without spending at least 8 refresh to get something good out of it. And yet in all the games i've played in all the books i read in all the movies I watch wizards can almost always shapechange. No with Fate rules.

In my game I allow any castingst that are 1/2 or less of your conviction and refinement and focus levels  cost no stress. its part of the evocation package no additional cost. That means if you have conviction of 4 you can can as many fireballs or fire whatever as you want if you only use half your strength. Its not until you really try to pull off something big that you need to worry about stress.

With this rule you can do some of the stuff carlos did in white knight and still take things down, still have enough umph to keep going when your wounded or out of stress. He  nailed crap loads of uber ghouls he finished them off killed them outright in some cases wounded and tired. One uber ghoul would give an in game wizard crap loads of trouble.

Mecanically there is no difference between  5 conviction spell and a 1 conviction spell if your conviction is 5, this is stupid. Both cost 1 stress. So other then control issues you never have a reason to cast weaker spells, they both tire you the same.

Over all I think the magic mechanics need a complete rewrite for the game. Fate rules are a mistake for the dresden world. Way to limiting, not in what you can do but how often you can do it.

Basically your a level 3 d&d wizard for the entire length of the game.

In the end as the OP has noticed if you dont like the rules you will be told to play  a different game, which in the end I did. Its sad really one of the best urban settings ever created is saddled with the worst rule set I have ever encountered.. We can only hope when the license runs out another group will get a shot at recreating the world and rules.

[potestas]

Slightly off topic, I was curious just how "Harry the PC" pulled that off. Did he let Lara place a maneuver on him with her powers and tag it, did she hit him with a consequence that he tagged himself? I could also see him placing a Lore Maneuver on himself with his exposition about emotions and magic. Oh well. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

thats the thing, tthere is nothing in the rules that would ever allow that or could. if you tap an outside force its good for maybe 2 shifts of power not near enugh to pull off what he pulled off on his last legs. remember Lara was running on empty too. Now if the GM and players want to invent outcomes then you really dont need rules, jus tsit down with a couple of beers and talk. But that isnt fun cause in the end just doesnt work.there is no limit to what you can invent.  Fate is too much 4 drunk guys making up a story and not enough guide lines that allow the fun to happen the way you imagine it should. I want to know how I can pull it off within the rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

You know, potestas, you could solve most of your problems just by playing in a 20-Refresh game and disallowing non-Wizard PCs.

And yet in all the games i've played in all the books i read in all the movies I watch wizards can almost always shapechange.

Really?

Which movies/books/games do you watch/read/play? In my experience wizardly shapeshifting is actually pretty rare.

Its sad really one of the best urban settings ever created is saddled with the worst rule set I have ever encountered.

Hah! Go play Scion some time.

Believe me, it gets worse than this. Much much worse.

I want to know how I can pull it off within the rules.

Invoke an Aspect. Invocations can do anything that seems reasonable.

Fate actually involves less outside-the-rules stuff than most other games, largely because Aspects are so flexible.

[Mr. Death]

I agree with the OP, but getting some of the others to agree with will not work. Most of the long time players think the fate rules are good rules.

They do not reflect with any accuracy, what wizards can do in the dresden world, not even close. If you look you can find me posting similar arguments that you have posted. Most of the responses i get are of the kind that will force your characters refresh so high that he becomes unplayable. It is always yes you can do it but add some refresh. Before you know you have a a 15-20 refresh character just so he can do some of the stuff in game that dresden(who i think is a lousy wizard) can do. dont even try to do what the merlin can do.(if you recall he tossed up a ward on the fly that held off the entire red court, i think that included the King but cant remember. In any case it was truely impressive.)

The listing of the Merlin in the rulebook is an acknowledged low-balling of him. He's probably easily throwing around 15 shifts at the least for his evocations.

There really isn't anything I can think of that Harry does that the rules don't account for somehow.

Examples include the alphas, non magical people learning to do one spell that harry dresden cant do and you could never do with thaumaturgy or evocation in game in any meaningful way without spending at least 8 refresh to get something good out of it. And yet in all the games i've played in all the books i read in all the movies I watch wizards can almost always shapechange. No with Fate rules.

I don't see how a bunch of other settings are at all relevant for Dresden.

People can fly just by training really hard in DBZ. That doesn't mean it is or should be possible in Dresden.

With this rule you can do some of the stuff carlos did in white knight and still take things down, still have enough umph to keep going when your wounded or out of stress. He  nailed crap loads of uber ghouls he finished them off killed them outright in some cases wounded and tired. One uber ghoul would give an in game wizard crap loads of trouble.

That was after Carlos had a chance to get a look at them, and you forget that Carlos's first attack against them totally failed to stop one.

You seem to be confusing the narrative and the mechanics again. Carlos sending a bunch of rapid-fire blasts at a bunch of ghouls is not him throwing a dozen Weapon:2 spells each. It's him throwing one large zone attack and narrating it as the rapid-fire blasts.

Over all I think the magic mechanics need a complete rewrite for the game. Fate rules are a mistake for the dresden world. Way to limiting, not in what you can do but how often you can do it.

I disagree, and I think you're completely off base here. The fate rules as written are damn near perfect for the kinds of things we see Harry do.

There seriously is maybe one, two fights in the entire series where Harry uses more than three or four spells; and when he does, he outright says he's leaning on outside sources.

In the end as the OP has noticed if you dont like the rules you will be told to play  a different game, which in the end I did. Its sad really one of the best urban settings ever created is saddled with the worst rule set I have ever encountered.. We can only hope when the license runs out another group will get a shot at recreating the world and rules.

What's this "we" business? I really do not comprehend your issues with this system. It's a pretty solid emulation of the things Dresden can do, and that he can't do things that wizards do in other settings is irrelevant.

thats the thing, tthere is nothing in the rules that would ever allow that or could. if you tap an outside force its good for maybe 2 shifts of power not near enugh to pull off what he pulled off on his last legs. remember Lara was running on empty too. Now if the GM and players want to invent outcomes then you really dont need rules, jus tsit down with a couple of beers and talk. But that isnt fun cause in the end just doesnt work.there is no limit to what you can invent.  Fate is too much 4 drunk guys making up a story and not enough guide lines that allow the fun to happen the way you imagine it should. I want to know how I can pull it off within the rules.

Okay, it seems you have misunderstood what happened in that scene, mechanically.

Harry does not tag the aspect for a 2-shift spell. He tags the aspect and takes two shifts of stress off the spell he's using. Which means he can do a spell that would normally fill up his second stress box -- in Harry's case, with his improved shield bracelet and all, is at the very least 7 or 8 shifts. An 8 shift spell to, basically, move a bunch of zones really fast. Not a two-shift spell.

Or he tagged the aspect to say, "Okay, Lara rolled an 8 to place the maneuver, so I'm going to tag that and say it's an 8-shift spell."

There are a whole lot of things you can do with Fate that you don't seem to be aware of.

[potestas]

You know, potestas, you could solve most of your problems just by playing in a 20-Refresh game and disallowing non-Wizard PCs.

Really?

Which movies/books/games do you watch/read/play? In my experience wizardly shapeshifting is actually pretty rare.

Hah! Go play Scion some time.

Believe me, it gets worse than this. Much much worse.

Invoke an Aspect. Invocations can do anything that seems reasonable.

Fate actually involves less outside-the-rules stuff than most other games, largely because Aspects are so flexible.

I am not going to argue.(well not really)
 I know you love the game you have done some wonderful things to make the game better. You have, with some of the other people who frequent this board, have taken a piss poor rule set and made it into something so much better. Its too bad you didn't write the rules and create the game  I am pretty sure you would have done better. I have seen your website. You guys are why i keep trying to like the game. But it is not a good rule set for Dresden magic.

I think D&D magic using spell points would actual do a better job representing what Dresden can do. Not the memorizing part but more like rote spell part. Once he learns a spell he ca n cast it at anytime if he has enough spell points. Its pretty much what he does in the books anyway. I think coupling the spell casting to the stress track is the mistake. Perhaps an ingame rule that brings in spell points based on convicition and refinement or somthing like that. With each level of spell costing a spell point. Example average strength spell ocsts 1 point fair cost 2 that sort of thing. I'd have to think about it more.

Harry Potter, 4th level D&D spell polymorph other/self I mean really a wizard should be able to shift his form into a cat at least or a bird but that would take about 4 refresh to pull off. Thats why its important to actually have spells in the game and not just descriptions of what can be a spell.

Like  I said I am not going to argue with you Sanctaphrax, i know you love the game and the books and you probably know more about the rules then most people on the forum,(including me) but when it comes to the magic aspect of the fate rules the rules need a lot of help. help you guys have provided with a crap load of in house rules and ideas Which as i have mentioned before is proof of the weakness of the rules at least as they apply to dresden style wizards from the book.

[potestas]

thats pretty much how i solved it, I just wish I had the dresden world already mapped out for me (using d20 rules)  as I dont have the time I use to create the whole world or mod it in any meaningful way.

[Haru]

Mecanically there is no difference between  5 conviction spell and a 1 conviction spell if your conviction is 5, this is stupid. Both cost 1 stress. So other then control issues you never have a reason to cast weaker spells, they both tire you the same.

I think D&D magic using spell points would actual do a better job representing what Dresden can do. Not the memorizing part but more like rote spell part. Once he learns a spell he ca n cast it at anytime if he has enough spell points. Its pretty much what he does in the books anyway. I think coupling the spell casting to the stress track is the mistake. Perhaps an ingame rule that brings in spell points based on convicition and refinement or somthing like that. With each level of spell costing a spell point. Example average strength spell ocsts 1 point fair cost 2 that sort of thing. I'd have to think about it more.

True, but keep in mind that you can get mighty powerful really quickly. A superb starting wizard can take 2 refresh worth of refinement and start out with 8 control 8 power easily. That would mean he can throw around 8 shift attacks with a weapon:4 for free, which is magnitudes greater than any mortal will be able to do. One of those can easily be enough to take out an opponent. Make it a zone weapon:2 attack, it's still free, and you can blast up a whole group of enemies. Sure, that's cool, and I'll happily have you do it, but just like Harry tires when he does something like it, so should the player. Linking it to the mental stress track accomplishes that.

Not to mention that you can easily have enchanted items with additional spells, which you can narrate as casting a low powered spell with a focus item, instead of tapping into a stored spell. Yes, the mechanics handles it like that, but it doesn't have to be on the narrative side. I think the disconnect between those two levels is the core of this whole thread.

Harry Potter, 4th level D&D spell polymorph other/self I mean really a wizard should be able to shift his form into a cat at least or a bird but that would take about 4 refresh to pull off. Thats why its important to actually have spells in the game and not just descriptions of what can be a spell.

But this is Harry Dresden, not Potter. Though Fate would do a fine job with that as well, I've seen some great adaptations. The thing is, it's not D&D either, and playing Fate like D&D is going to leave you disliking Fate, I can absolutely understand that.

You don't really need 4 refresh to pull this off. 5 shift ritual to take yourself out, bam, you're a cat. Granted, you don't benefit from all that much from your catness, but that's where temporary powers come in. Skin a cat and use the free tag on the "skin of a cat" aspect to grant you "diminutive size" or "beast change: cat" for a scene. Or eat a cats eyes and use the tag to grant you "supernatural senses: nightvision". Or if you are short on aspects to create, spend a Fate point to achieve the same.

We don't really see any wizard, except LtW, shift into anything. Sure, there are novels and games where this happens, but it's not the Dresden Files. And even then, if you want to accomplish this, give your wizard "modular abilities", one set for the wizard, the other for an animal form, and you have your shapeshifting wizard. There's a lot of ways to accomplish what you want in this game, and yes, it's not as clear cut as some other games, but to me, that's a good thing, as it lets me do things the way I like them to be. House rules are part of the design philosophy of Fate. Make things work for you the way you like them. I was a bit perplexed by this in the beginning as well, but once I dug in, I really liked it.

[potestas]

True, but keep in mind that you can get mighty powerful really quickly. A superb starting wizard can take 2 refresh worth of refinement and start out with 8 control 8 power easily. That would mean he can throw around 8 shift attacks with a weapon:4 for free, which is magnitudes greater than any mortal will be able to do. One of those can easily be enough to take out an opponent. Make it a zone weapon:2 attack, it's still free, and you can blast up a whole group of enemies. Sure, that's cool, and I'll happily have you do it, but just like Harry tires when he does something like it, so should the player. Linking it to the mental stress track accomplishes that.

Not to mention that you can easily have enchanted items with additional spells, which you can narrate as casting a low powered spell with a focus item, instead of tapping into a stored spell. Yes, the mechanics handles it like that, but it doesn't have to be on the narrative side. I think the disconnect between those two levels is the core of this whole thread.
But this is Harry Dresden, not Potter. Though Fate would do a fine job with that as well, I've seen some great adaptations. The thing is, it's not D&D either, and playing Fate like D&D is going to leave you disliking Fate, I can absolutely understand that.

You don't really need 4 refresh to pull this off. 5 shift ritual to take yourself out, bam, you're a cat. Granted, you don't benefit from all that much from your catness, but that's where temporary powers come in. Skin a cat and use the free tag on the "skin of a cat" aspect to grant you "diminutive size" or "beast change: cat" for a scene. Or eat a cats eyes and use the tag to grant you "supernatural senses: nightvision". Or if you are short on aspects to create, spend a Fate point to achieve the same.

We don't really see any wizard, except LtW, shift into anything. Sure, there are novels and games where this happens, but it's not the Dresden Files. And even then, if you want to accomplish this, give your wizard "modular abilities", one set for the wizard, the other for an animal form, and you have your shapeshifting wizard. There's a lot of ways to accomplish what you want in this game, and yes, it's not as clear cut as some other games, but to me, that's a good thing, as it lets me do things the way I like them to be. House rules are part of the design philosophy of Fate. Make things work for you the way you like them. I was a bit perplexed by this in the beginning as well, but once I dug in, I really liked it.

i also think some of my problem with the game is my lack of understanding of the rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

For what it's worth, I don't claim the rules are perfect. And I don't really want to argue all the time.

But when you post I often feel like I just walked into a room and heard the last line of a long conversation. It's like...that sounds kinda crazy, except I'm pretty sure it makes more sense in context. Makes it kinda hard not to reply.

Well, not actually difficult. But you know what I mean.

PS: No matter how much you hate Fate, there's worse out there. So much worse.

[Melendwyr]

There are many times in the books, and multiple times pre-Turn Coat, where Dresden uses lots of spells.

He normally doesn't use all that many, certainly.  Rather the same way he doesn't run until he passes out from exhaustion, or eat until he's in danger of rupturing, or hold his breath until he's at risk from anoxia.  He has no reason to do that.  But on those occasions where he casts spells until he's running dangerously low on power, he can do far more than four or five.