Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress

[Melendwyr]

I find myself frustrated by the meager-seeming amounts of magic that characters can manage to throw around in a single DFRPG conflict.  Yet the stress mechanic is too important to eliminate or massively overhaul.  I've come up with a hypothetical houserule that might permit characters to throw around more magic without blowing the limits entirely:

The first time a particular Rote spell is used in a given scene, it generates no 'default' stress.  Stress that comes from channeling more energy than Conviction permits, or ignoring the requirements for spoken verbal triggers, and so forth, still applies.  But the single point of stress that comes from casting any spell?  Isn't present for the first in-scene casting.

Thoughts?

[Haru]

I think it's good the way it is. For more spells to throw around, you can simply go for enchanted items. They can be set up similar to your rotes, and you can get a lot of uses out of them. Their drawback, of course, is that they are predetermined, but so are rote spells, so this would not be that much of an issue.

One more spell won't really do that much to begin with. You can easily do that with 5 or higher conviction, which gives you an additional mild mental consequence, which you can use for an additional spell.

[Sanctaphrax]

Could work. You'd have to raise the Refresh cost of Evocation or drop some bonuses from it to compensate, though.

But I wouldn't call the number of spells a DFRPG caster can use meager. In most of the games I've played, four spells has felt like plenty.

[Melendwyr]

Have you actually ever sat down with the novels and worked out how many spells Harry throws around in the equivalent of a 'scene'?  Particularly in the later novels, in which it implied that either his capacity for magic has increased or he's become much more efficient (or both, of course).

Four or five spells doesn't cut it.  And we're ignoring the point that some spells are inherently more magic-intensive than others, regardless of how they're customized.

[malovane]

I have to disagree, four or five spells per scene is a ton.  Plus, I've always felt like Harry just has multiple sources of "sponsored" magic to draw upon and permit more spell casting than your typical wizard.  Mantle of the winter knight, demonsreach, soulfire, hellfire, etc.  Not to mention the variety of enchanted items he uses.  Just incur some debt to eat the stress and permit more casting.  Harry also typically carries a gun or uses mundane attacks (fists and such) in combat.  He isn't throwing spells all the time.  Casting and spending that associated mental stress is something wizards should have to manage.  The sponsored magic option provides a way to cast more frequently, but at a price.

Between enchanted items to create spell effects and sponsored magic, I've never felt a need to house rule further free casting or extra mental stress.

[Haru]

Have you actually ever sat down with the novels and worked out how many spells Harry throws around in the equivalent of a 'scene'?

Spell(novel) <> Spell(game)

If Harry tells us that he is throwing around a few fireballs, that doesn't have to be a spell in the sense of the game. It can simply be flavor, it's a cool show, but it doesn't accomplish anything, so it doesn't cost anything.

Then, multiple spells in the novel can actually just be one spell in the game. For example when Harry throws a half dozen fireballs at someone, but only the last one hits, that doesn't have to be 6 spells, it can just be 1 spell, narrated to look like 6.

And last but not least, there could be mid-scene pauses. When a fight lasts longer than a chapter, it could be that when the chapter ends the scene ends and everyone gets to clear their stress tracks. I believe this is actually mentioned in YS, but I have no idea where. If I find it, I'll give you the page.

[Mr. Death]

Have you actually ever sat down with the novels and worked out how many spells Harry throws around in the equivalent of a 'scene'?  Particularly in the later novels, in which it implied that either his capacity for magic has increased or he's become much more efficient (or both, of course).

Four or five spells doesn't cut it.  And we're ignoring the point that some spells are inherently more magic-intensive than others, regardless of how they're customized.

Actually, I have. Harry almost never casts more than four or five distinct spells without a break in between.

In the later novels, he has one or more sponsored magics, which he is explicitly leaning on for extra gas in his tank -- sponsor debt to soak up the stress.

I think it's good the way it is. For more spells to throw around, you can simply go for enchanted items. They can be set up similar to your rotes, and you can get a lot of uses out of them. Their drawback, of course, is that they are predetermined, but so are rote spells, so this would not be that much of an issue.

One more spell won't really do that much to begin with. You can easily do that with 5 or higher conviction, which gives you an additional mild mental consequence, which you can use for an additional spell.

Funny story. One of my players just 'got' the idea of enchanted items (particularly after I explained to him that you could use the specializations and foci to boost the default power and usages for each slot). His reaction was, "...You've been trying to explain this for three scenarios. Why the hell didn't I listen?"

[Melendwyr]

Spell(novel) <> Spell(game)

If Harry tells us that he is throwing around a few fireballs, that doesn't have to be a spell in the sense of the game. It can simply be flavor, it's a cool show, but it doesn't accomplish anything, so it doesn't cost anything.

  So if I cast a fireball but don't roll well enough to hit with it, it somehow doesn't inflict stress on me?  And of course there are no meaningful reactions to an attempted fireball, like dodging, that would follow from an attempt.  Which is free, because it didn't accomplish anything.  Riiight.

Don't forget all of the relatively long-term spells Harry casts, which involve generating even more stress when they're extended.

[Sanctaphrax]

  So if I cast a fireball but don't roll well enough to hit with it, it somehow doesn't inflict stress on me?  And of course there are no meaningful reactions to an attempted fireball, like dodging, that would follow from an attempt.  Which is free, because it didn't accomplish anything.  Riiight.

No.

What he said was that what looks like six spells to a character might just be one spell to a player. You can totally describe your fire attack spell as a bunch of little fireballs, some of which miss even on a successful attack.

[Mr. Death]

No.

What he said was that what looks like six spells to a character might just be one spell to a player. You can totally describe your fire attack spell as a bunch of little fireballs, some of which miss even on a successful attack.

For example, the duel with Arriana -- there's a bit where Harry is saying he's continuously tearing rock off the wall to throw at her. That's one spell, even if, in the flavor, Harry is doing a bunch of rapid-fire smaller spells.

[Haru]

  So if I cast a fireball but don't roll well enough to hit with it, it somehow doesn't inflict stress on me?  And of course there are no meaningful reactions to an attempted fireball, like dodging, that would follow from an attempt.  Which is free, because it didn't accomplish anything.  Riiight.

You misunderstand me. Say we are in a chase on foot. My action would be to roll athletics to get away from you. But because I'm a wizard and it looks good, I say that while I run, I throw a couple of fireballs behind me, without looking. I don't roll on those, they are not meant to accomplish anything, they are simply flavor for the chase. I could do the same with a gun, but I'm a wizard, so why not make it count?

The point is, that the fireball I throw in that case is not an action, it was never meant to accomplish anything, other than enrich the story. I don't get a benefit from it, my opponent doesn't get a penalty from it, it does nothing but look good. And that's why it doesn't need any stress.

If I am attempting to do something, that's my action. I have the chance of achieving something, so I have to pay for it. If my opponent rolls better, that's bad luck, but I don't get to say "nothing happened, so I won't pay". You pay for the chance of something happening, not for the actual outcome.

It's similar to when Harry does his "ventas servitas" to retrieve his staff. Most of the time it's just flavor. He could have just as well walked over and gotten it, there's no sense in taking stress. But when he does the same spell when talking to the photographer in Storm Front, he uses the same spell to intimidate the photographer with his power. In this case, the spell is supposed to actually accomplish something in the game, it's a maneuver to place something like "look at my fearsome powers" on the scene, that Harry can tag on an intimidation attack. And in that case, it will have cost him a point of stress.

Don't forget all of the relatively long-term spells Harry casts, which involve generating even more stress when they're extended.

Do you have an example of this?

[Melendwyr]

The big battle during White Night:

Fuego
Force Shield, extended and made reflective (it's notably more expensive than earlier versions)
Forzare as a area attack
another Force Shield which lasts for multiple exchanges
a rift to the Nevernever (which is elsewhere said to be very magic-intensive)
brings up the shield again
another Forzare blast, with Hellfire, multiple targets
a massive fire spell that turns an entire area to molten stone
another shield activation
and one final shield powered by Lara's kiss, which might involve a consequence - although there is no textual evidence of any lasting effects

Even assuming Sponsored Spellcasting handled the fire, and one of the force blasts, that's an absolute minimum of six castings.  Assuming that Harry accepted mild consequences (which there is absolutely nothing in the text to suggest) he'd still have made four normal castings, which would fill his mental stress track completely.  Assuming he didn't additionally extend any of the durational spells - that would put him way over the limit.

(I'll point out that Ramirez casts many potent spells with multiple targets that are nevertheless lethal despite having some serious injuries which would preclude his accepting consequences to cast, too.  He does not seem to possess any kind of Sponsored Spellcasting.)

And, of course, he was subject to a massive psychic attack which would also produce stress and temporarily incapacitated him.  Which by the rules he would be far more vulnerable to than most of the people in the battle, because he'd been casting spells, and in the RPG rules that produces stress on the mental track.

[Haru]

The can easily be uses of his enchanted items, which would cut down on the stress.

Then I think there's at least one major break during the fight, which could have wiped the stress tracks.

Opening the rift might actually be a plot device. It's been talked about beforehand, bargained with Marcone, etc. Opening the rift might just be the action to activate this, but it doesn't have to be a spell from a mechanical standpoint.

The same actually goes for the final shield. I'd say both Lara and Harry took a consequence to power that, and that might have just been it. Or maybe it was just part of the cutscene after the fight was over.

That's my main point, really. Not everything that looks like a spell actually is a spell.


I will agree with you that if you shoot spells like you shoot a gun, 4 can be pretty few. But that's why you have to make them count. If the monster shook off your first spell, don't keep firing, safe your energy for things that matter and make your 4 spells count. If you can't find a way, retreat, regroup, research, try again. That's pretty much what happens to Harry on a regular basis.

[Melendwyr]

The can easily be uses of his enchanted items, which would cut down on the stress.

  Nope.  I didn't even mention the cases where his duster repelled something - those are the actual spells that he cast.

Then I think there's at least one major break during the fight, which could have wiped the stress tracks.

  Wrong.  There is a section of description in which Harry describes some of the many things happening all at once.  There is no point in the battle where Harry can pause and collect himself, free from risk and the threat of having to respond at a moment's notice to lethal danger.

Opening the rift might actually be a plot device. It's been talked about beforehand, bargained with Marcone, etc. Opening the rift might just be the action to activate this, but it doesn't have to be a spell from a mechanical standpoint.

  Other than it being a spell, which he cast.  Marcone had no ability to open a rift, nor did anyone else who came through.

The same actually goes for the final shield. I'd say both Lara and Harry took a consequence to power that, and that might have just been it. Or maybe it was just part of the cutscene after the fight was over.

  It's not included in the analysis - as I explicitly stated.

That's my main point, really. Not everything that looks like a spell actually is a spell.

  You are either a liar or you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

This sort of name calling is a violation of forum precepts.  Please review the Rules. http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.msg988906.html#msg988906  Edit your posts, and be civil on the Boards, just the same as you might if you were sitting in Jim or Iago's living room.   ~Blaze, Moderator.

The rules as published do not permit scenes such as the ones that occur in the novels covered by the game.  At most, they might be able to represent how magic works in the very earliest books.  They are incapable of emulating the performance of wizards - not just Harry, but wizards generally.  This is not something which can be handwaved away, it is a serious failure of the existing rules.

[Haru]

You are either a liar or you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Well, I guess this is my exit then.