Author Topic: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress  (Read 26208 times)

Offline bobjob

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2014, 09:22:00 PM »
Ok, I feel I have to ask this. What are you hoping to get out of your points? Some kind of secret admission that there are flaws or perhaps some validation that they are true and maybe one of the game designers to jump in and say "Hey, you're right!" ?

You've asked several questions and for input and don't seem particularly pleased (at least by my reading) with a majority of the responses. If the mechanics as written don't work for you, then why play with them? Use Vancian magic or any other magic system or rule set if you think it will work better. We've all run into issues and we've all had to tweak the rules to our personal tastes and play styles. I don't think I've ever seen a true Rules As Written DFRPG game played. I'm sure they exist in the wild and maybe they are here in one of the PbP games I haven't read, but for the most part there is give and take as to what is kosher. We're simply providing you the tweaks that we've made to make some of the mechanics you're asking about work more to our tastes and expectations.
The entire Red Court was taken down by the new Winter Knight? From the lowliest pawn all the way up to the King? *puts on sunglasses* Knight to G7. Check mate.

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Offline Melendwyr

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2014, 09:41:58 PM »
Ok, I feel I have to ask this. What are you hoping to get out of your points? Some kind of secret admission that there are flaws or perhaps some validation that they are true and maybe one of the game designers to jump in and say "Hey, you're right!" ?

Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions.  Nah, that's just too crazy.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2014, 09:49:10 PM »
Setting aside the question of whether the flaw you're complaining about actually exists...

Like I said, your idea could work. But you'd have to make cuts elsewhere to balance it out. Have you thought about what to cut?

And if you're looking for other suggestions, there's a Power on the wiki that lets you trade Refresh for mental stress boxes at a 1:1 rate.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 09:55:31 PM by Sanctaphrax »

Offline polkaneverdies

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2014, 09:54:28 PM »
There tends to be a large imbalance in the power of magic attacks vs non magic attacks. A spell slingers limited number of shots is one of the big things that "corrects" that balance.

I imagine this is why you are getting so much pushback on the idea of at least doubling their number of spells.

Offline bobjob

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2014, 09:54:51 PM »
And you haven't received any replies to your posts with opinions and possible solutions? Every one I've seen have several but I can always go back and double check. We all seem to want the same thing, a fun and rewarding game experience. I'll admit, sometimes the rules get in the way or don't handle what is seen in the books exactly. That's why we house rule. Not all of the house rules are perfect though, but they can get the job done.

I personally created a couple of custom powers that allow for extra oomph when dealing with rote spells. I'll have to see if I can dig them up.
The entire Red Court was taken down by the new Winter Knight? From the lowliest pawn all the way up to the King? *puts on sunglasses* Knight to G7. Check mate.

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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2014, 09:55:04 PM »
This is a perfectly true point.  It is also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT as an argument in this context.  The issue is not whether any game can perfectly emulate whatever Jim Butcher has written or may eventually write.

Since it seems that this needs to be explicitly laid out, the issues here are as follows:

1)  The DFRPG rules do not permit certain kinds of dramatic scenes; specifically, extended combats with frequent use of magic, or any situation in which many spells are used in a short period of time.
Sure they do. As has been pointed out, a lot of the "dramatic" flourishes are represented by flavor, not mechanics. Also, the GM has the right and ability to declare a stress-clearing pause whenever he or she wants.
Quote
2)  This is undesirable for anyone who might want to use this system for a game in which such scenes are possible.
Or...you can be a little flexible. Just declare that a pause between one set of antagonists and the next is enough for spells to refresh.
Quote
4)  The relative de-emphasis on rigid mechanics in FATE generally, and this game in specifically, does not excuse poor mechanics where they do exist.
Excuse? I don't see how they're "poor mechanics" in the first place.
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5)  Trying to force the source material to conform to the limitations of this game's mechanics is inappropriate.
And nobody here is trying to do this, so I don't know what your issue here is.

Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions.  Nah, that's just too crazy.
And being antagonistic and sarcastic isn't exactly the way to get us to help you out.

Speaking as someone who's been playing with the system for a few years now, the long battle scenes you're describing are, well, too damn long. My players -- even the ones without magic -- tend to consider combat that goes past five or six turns to be extremely long and just dragging on. Especially when there's a lot of players on either side. Even a single turn could take up to an hour when you've got four PCs or more and equal opposition.

A better solution? Treat battles as an abstract, rather than a blow-by-blow. A turn has no definite length -- for a long battle scene (say, Chichen Itza), maybe the first turn is everything from Murphy's first swing to Harry grabbing people to start going up the stairs. Just like you might roll Survival or Endurance to represent long periods spent outdoors, maybe you just roll a spell to represent a long period fighting.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 09:56:43 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline bobjob

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2014, 09:55:44 PM »
As Sancta said, it's all about game balance. Refresh cost balances that. So does trimming a power to exclude an ability in favor of another ability.
The entire Red Court was taken down by the new Winter Knight? From the lowliest pawn all the way up to the King? *puts on sunglasses* Knight to G7. Check mate.

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Offline bobjob

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2014, 10:06:56 PM »
Here are a few of the custom powers I played with to not only extend spellcasting but also make it a little more inline with what is seen in the novels.

Rote Mastery [-2]
Your mastery of rote spells is so efficient that you do not tire as easily when casting them.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Lore
Effects: 
Mind Over Matter - You gain two additional Mental stress boxes that can only be used for rote stress. These two boxes may be used before using your normal Mental stress boxes and count as 1 and 2 stress respectively.
Arcane Intellect - Your lore is considered two steps higher when determining the number of rote spells you have access to.

Focused Rote [-2]
You are so efficient at your rote spells, you can cast them easier than non-rote spells.
Skills Affected: Discipline, Conviction
Effects:
Efficient Casting - Your Discipline is considered 1 higher when you cast a Rote Spell
Arcane Brilliance - You can cast a Rote Spell defensively by taking one additional stress. Normally, you cannot cast any spell defensively (Enchanted items or Skill checks are used)

Forceful Rote [-2]
Your belief in your rote spells is so great, they hit harder than normal.
Skills Affected: Conviction
Effects:
Rote Domination - Your damaging rotes negate 2 points of armor for a single target or 1 additional point of armor for multiple targets. If there is no armor, there is no additional effect.
Repetition Breeds Confidence - Your conviction is considered 1 higher for Rote Spells.
The entire Red Court was taken down by the new Winter Knight? From the lowliest pawn all the way up to the King? *puts on sunglasses* Knight to G7. Check mate.

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Offline Melendwyr

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2014, 10:22:45 PM »
Sure they do. As has been pointed out, a lot of the "dramatic" flourishes are represented by flavor, not mechanics.
  A combat doesn't need 'flourishes' to be dramatic.  The spells used in the White Night battle were described as having effects that are mechanically represented in the DFRPG rules.  A force attack that topples a crowd of enemies isn't a dramatic flourish.  A shielding that repels an attack isn't a dramatic flourish.

The guidelines for what uses of magic shouldn't count as a spell are really quite clear... and they emphasize that if magical effects that aren't spells in a mechanical sense change important aspects of the scenario that expenditure of a Fate Point might be necessary to effectively 'declare' a changed aspect.

Quote
Also, the GM has the right and ability to declare a stress-clearing pause whenever he or she wants.
  It's a game of make-believe, we can technically do whatever we want, whenever we want to.  That does not excuse problems with the rules we use to give structure and meaning to our make-believe.

Most major battle scenes are not going to permit characters to rest and catch their breath and 'compose themselves'.  In the exceptions, the characters ought to have taken cover or be protected by others.  This principle already operates with FPs and sessions - characters don't regain refresh if a particular scene ends up stretching across sessions if the GM decides it's like a two-part TV episode.  This situation is a great deal like that - if there's no pause in the action for a character, they don't get to clear their stress!

Do you really think my players - or most people playing the game - aren't going to have serious issues with the GM if the people and monsters they're challenging suddenly revitalize and lose all their stress mid-combat, just because the GM decided to arbitrarily declare a rest break?  It's not good storytelling and it's not good game play.

A refresh being declared during a break in active hostilities?  Like the time between Harry defeating Arianna and mass combat breaking out in Changes?  That makes total sense.  But not every battle is going to be like that.  The rules as they exist now don't permit that.

Offline Melendwyr

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2014, 10:33:14 PM »
As Sancta said, it's all about game balance. Refresh cost balances that. So does trimming a power to exclude an ability in favor of another ability.

I do find it ironic that it's essentially impossible to recreate Harry Dresden as a character in the RPG without him becoming an NPC.  He simply couldn't gain experience quickly enough to pay the costs proposed for all of the abilities he has in-canon.

Thank you for your list rote-related powers, I find them quite interesting.  They certainly disturb the current balance less than my proposed change would.

Offline Haru

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2014, 11:17:03 PM »
Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions.  Nah, that's just too crazy.
In all the threads you've started, you asked a question and then told people who answered you that they were playing the game wrong. All those people have been playing a long time, and have solved various problems with their methods, including the one you are asking questions about. It's fine if you just don't like the game, and it's fine if you don't like the solutions that people propose. I don't like a lot of the solutions to any given problem either, so I use my own. That's how Fate works, anything that happens can be done in a number of ways, depending on the preferences of the players involved. That doesn't make any of those ways right or wrong. I would appreciate if you could keep that in mind when talking to people around here.

Fate doesn't try to simulate reality (or even a dresdenverse version of reality), it emulates narrative structures. It can be used to simulate things to a degree, but there are a lot of other systems that do that better, and you are always going to run into problems if you try to play it like that. Even more so, if you don't expect to run into those problems. It took me a while to get this, as well, and it's especially tough when coming from other, more traditional games.

Let's start with stress. Stress is not equal to hitpoints or health or however other games that have mechanics similar to this call it. Neither is mental stress equal to mana. In Fate, stress is used as a pacing mechanism. It takes a while to burn through someone's stress track, so it will make a conflict last longer. If a conflict is not interesting to me, I could resolve it as a single roll, the player and I both roll the fists skill for the characters involved, and the higher roll wins the entire conflict. But since the game is about action, I usually want my fights to last a bit longer, so I choose to use a mechanic that will last longer. The conflict is that mechanic.
But I might want to have something that lasts even longer. That's when I can simply reset the stress and treat what happens next as a new scene. Imagine a tv series with a big fight scene. Lots of action, people get hit, thrown against the wall, they hurt pretty bad. Then there's a moment of high suspension and suddenly, there's a commercial break.
And that's where the stress reset can set in. There doesn't have to be a reason like "the characters have a few minutes to catch their breath" or anything. It's a way to structure your narrative, and if you want the fight to keep going, just when it reaches its peak, go for it. Of course it should count for everyone, players and NPCs alike.

There's also another way to go here, and that's sub-goals. An important part of setting up a conflict is to set up a goal for each side, and they should be somewhat opposite. Most often, the goal is simply "kill the opposition", which is fine, but it isn't always the best choice. And sometimes, it might not even be a choice at all. Instead, and especially if you want to prolong your final fight scene, you can set up sub-goals. You basically need to take out your opponent a few times in a row, each time something happens. Maybe they lose an arm, their mythical weapon, the amulet that makes them immune to magic, whatever you've got. Once such a taken out has occurred, everything is reset, and the next conflict begins.
But again, the mechanical conflict only. It could be that you are literally mid karate chop when this happens, but that doesn't matter, there's been a break in the narrative, something has dramatically changed, that warrants a change of pace.

Next, plot devices. Let's go back to the situation where Harry opens a portal in the deeps to let Marcone in. I would handle this one of two ways:
1) The plan was hatched on-screen. The players anticipated that the deeps would be full of armed thugs, so they found a way to counter it, ask Marcone and his goons for help. The negotiation with Marcone was played out in full, and the situation was planned so that sometime in the deeps, Harry could simply "activate" Marcone to neutralize the thugs that would otherwise outnumber them. It was agreed upon that this would simply happen, there was no need for a spell or anything, it was just a plot device. When Harry's player said "now", Harry would open the portal and Marcone was there to the rescue. Harry would cast a spell to open the portal, obviously, but it was already decided that this would happen, so there was no need in rolling anything. The spell was just the plot device to get Marcone there, it was not a spell that Harry had to roll to control or anything like that. It was decided that this would be a cool thing to happen, so it happened.
2) In the middle of the deeps, Harry's player realizes that he is heavily outnumbered. He comes up with the idea that he could have gone to Marcone and asked him to lend him some of his goons. He didn't do that before going into the deeps, but the player hands the GM a Fate point and they agree that Harry has done that, and now they are waiting on the other side, ready to strike. Opening the portal is part of spending the Fate point, again there's no need to roll, it happens, because the player paid for it. It's a plot device, something that just happens, because the plot demands it to. You may think this is arbitrary, and to a degree you are right, but it is still under the scrutiny of the table, and if everything agrees that this is something cool that could happen, why stand in the way?

And if you ask other players, I'm sure they will find a few dozen other ways you could do this. Now obviously, you could ask Harry's player to roll to open the way, but I would advise against it. If you have something cool like this in the barrel, you'd sort of be shooting yourself in the foot, if you force a roll on it, since the roll can fail and you stand there with nothing. You can always go for a compel, if you want to twist things. Which is also something that happens there. Harry's plan was to escape through the portal with the rest. But he had probably spent all his Fate points already, and the GM grinned, held up a Fate point and said "Wouldn't it be a shame, if you were under a psychic attack and missed the closing portal by this much?" He can only accept and find another way out, which he did with Lara and the kiss-shield, probably also powered by the same Fate point he just got.

Speaking off, I had a plot device spell like that happen in my own game, and it's pretty much my favorite scene ever. The players were fighting the resurrection of the red king and had failed, he was standing in front of them. The Warden of the group (played by bobjob) charged him, set off his death curse while tapping into summer magic and exploded into a nova of pure sunshine, burning the red king and any red court vampire around to ashes.
Now I could have calculated how many shifts of power that would have been, and if it would have been enough to take out the red king, or if he survives, etc. But I ask you, why would I rob me and my players from an amazing ending like that? It worked, without asking, it worked. Sometimes, the rule of cool just trumps everything, at least in my opinion.

The difference between narrative and simulative is really where I'm coming from the entire time. A simulative approach means you will have to put everything that happens into rules and numbers. And that's well and good, but it's important you know that's what you are doing or that's what you are expecting from a game. The narrative approach on the other hand tries to be light on rules and only uses rules to form the narrative.

For example, when Harry goes into a dark room, he has two option: he can either switch on the light, or he can call forth light from his amulet. Now I'm not talking general, I'm talking this specific example. Since Harry is a wizard, it's kind of cool to have him use his magic to make light. The simulative approach would now say that since it is a spell, Harry would need to roll for it and take stress. The narrative approach would say that there is effectively no difference between switching on the light and magical light, both light up the room so Harry can see where he is and what's there. No need to roll for one, so there's no need to roll for the other, it's just this characters flavor. This flavor magic is actually in the book (YS259 - Mundane Effects)
Murphy might have brought a flashlight, which would be her style.

It's kind of like when you expect to drink coke and get sprite instead, it will simply taste wrong. If you drink the same sprite, expecting it to be sprite, it'll taste completely different.

And this is kind of why the rules seem so vague. It's because they are. But that's intended, because it's up to each group to figure out how they want to deal with things. The book gives a lot of examples and a lot of advice on how to do so, but ultimately, it leaves a lot of wiggle room for people to find their sweet spot. I can totally understand that this might not be to your liking, but maybe if you look at it from another angle, you might at least understand the intentions behind the rules. Then you can decide if this is the game for you, or if you might be better off with a game that better matches your style of playing.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2014, 12:00:50 AM »
  A combat doesn't need 'flourishes' to be dramatic.  The spells used in the White Night battle were described as having effects that are mechanically represented in the DFRPG rules.  A force attack that topples a crowd of enemies isn't a dramatic flourish.  A shielding that repels an attack isn't a dramatic flourish.
You misunderstand me. What I mean is along the lines of, "Harry throwing out a dozen blasts of magic trying to hit Arianna doesn't have to be a dozen different spells."

Quote
  It's a game of make-believe, we can technically do whatever we want, whenever we want to.  That does not excuse problems with the rules we use to give structure and meaning to our make-believe.

Most major battle scenes are not going to permit characters to rest and catch their breath and 'compose themselves'.  In the exceptions, the characters ought to have taken cover or be protected by others.  This principle already operates with FPs and sessions - characters don't regain refresh if a particular scene ends up stretching across sessions if the GM decides it's like a two-part TV episode.  This situation is a great deal like that - if there's no pause in the action for a character, they don't get to clear their stress!
Sure there can be. I really don't see why you're so stuck on this arbitrarily strict reading of the rules.

Check YS20. Nowhere does it say that the GM can only do a refresh when there's sufficient amount of downtime. It says on YS21:
Quote
By the same token, if the GM
feels that a substantial (i.e., dramatically appropriate)
amount of downtime and rest occurs in
play, the GM may allow a refresh to occur midsession.

Please show me where in the rulebook it says that the GM absolutely cannot clear stress tracks until there has been a specific amount of time of actual, in-game rest for everyone involved.

Then it talks about moving large and significant swaths of time quickly, just like I'm suggesting for the long-term battle (I note you didn't actually respond to that, choosing only to attack my other suggestions) on YS315:
Quote
The relationship between story time and
game time is not consistent or clear-cut—large
swaths of story time might go by simply by
narrating that it passes

All I can find about reducing stress is it happens at the end of a scene. And, as I pointed out, the game's own writers have said that declaring a mid-scene break to clear stress tracks is exactly how they would adjudicate the scenes you're worried about.

Quote
Do you really think my players - or most people playing the game - aren't going to have serious issues with the GM if the people and monsters they're challenging suddenly revitalize and lose all their stress mid-combat, just because the GM decided to arbitrarily declare a rest break?  It's not good storytelling and it's not good game play.
Sure they'd have serious issues with that. Good thing that's not actually what I'm suggesting.

I'm suggesting that the players get a scene break that clears refresh when they have an appropriate break in the fight -- going to a new set of opponents, new set of circumstances, whatever.

Yes, I think they're not going to have a problem with it. It not being good storytelling or good game play is your own opinion. I've never had or seen anyone have a problem with getting their stress track cleared.

Quote
A refresh being declared during a break in active hostilities?  Like the time between Harry defeating Arianna and mass combat breaking out in Changes?  That makes total sense.  But not every battle is going to be like that.  The rules as they exist now don't permit that.
They do. We've tried to point this out repeatedly, you've chosen instead to reject what we say and attack our own opinions and experience.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 12:07:35 AM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2014, 12:16:40 AM »
Ah, found it. Here's what the rulebook says about clearing stress:

YS220
Quote
Any stress that your character takes during
a conflict goes away immediately after the
conflict
—stress represents the close scrapes and
glancing blows that your character can shrug off,
so it doesn’t last after the end of that conflict
scene. In rare instances, it might be appropriate
for stress to remain if your character goes immediately
from one conflict to another or to some
other appropriate scene (like a fight that turns
into a car chase), but for the most part, once the
conflict is done, the stress is gone.

Notice how it says it might be appropriate to keep stress from one scene to another. As in, the thing you are treating as an ironclad, absolutely necessary and completely unassailable rule is, according to the rulebook, completely optional.

Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

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Offline Melendwyr

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2014, 12:31:44 AM »
Please show me where in the rulebook it says that the GM absolutely cannot clear stress tracks until there has been a specific amount of time of actual, in-game rest for everyone involved.

I've never suggested a 'specific' amount of time.  But it has to make thematic sense.  Within a single 'episode' or 'session' there can be long breaks where the story as told and the time within the story don't have to match.  And within a single encounter, there can be breaks or rests that would permit stress to be cleared - if it actually makes sense that the characters would recuperate a bit in those circumstances.

Those sorts of circumstances would be uncommon in conflicts.  And most of the conflicts within the novels do not have such pauses - which makes them more realistic and believable.  I am not going to arbitrarily declare intermissions within extended conflicts if it doesn't make sense, no matter how much I might like stress to be purged.

Quote
I'm suggesting that the players get a scene break that clears refresh when they have an appropriate break in the fight -- going to a new set of opponents, new set of circumstances, whatever.

That's better than suggesting they should get one when there's a chapter break... but not by much.

Offline Melendwyr

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Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2014, 12:51:17 AM »
Notice how it says it might be appropriate to keep stress from one scene to another.
  The conflicts I'm talking about are a single scene.  The canonical conflict I analyzed was likewise a single scene.  The conflict was not over until it was over.  The White Court Vampire trying to kill Dresden was not actually defeated until the caverns blew up.  His escalating the conflict from a personal duel to a super-ghoul mass warfare killing field didn't produce a new scene any more than Harry deciding to stop throwing punches and start throwing fireballs would.

You can't just declare a new scene because you've decided you don't want to have stress.