An idea to allow more spell casting

[Mr. Death]

You don't go to war just because you could win. You need compelling reason -- and in this case, the White Council needs compelling reason to kill not only the White Court, but all the mortals who are going to defend them.

The wizards are going to be hamstrung by their inability to kill the mortals with magic, which turns a Warden from someone who can level whole armies into just a guy with a sword who can be taken down by arrows as well as anyone else.

[PirateJack]

Yeah, all that is true. But -- before they could get access to modern weaponry -- what would protect them from someone (Black Court, Red Court, White Council...) simply kicking in the door at a big White Court meeting and wiping out most of the leadership. The uberghouls were pretty effective at that in WN, and I think a fairly small strike force of Wardens or powerful Black Court vampires could accomplish pretty much the same thing. So how have they lasted so long?

Same as every other manipulative group in history. Secrecy. The White Court were never ambushed all at once because they very rarely all met in one place, and when they did it was kept secret from the rest of the world. On top of that, it's very difficult to tell whether a White Court vampire is even what it is unless they're actively using their powers. During Proven Guilty Madrigal Raith was able to hide the fact that he was a vampire almost entirely; Harry only stopped Murphy from touching him because of his instincts saying something was wrong. Madrigal Raith was pretty much the most useless WCV we've seen in the series as well.

[Belial666]

The wizards are going to be hamstrung by their inability to kill the mortals with magic

Uhuh.

1) Gather many wizards in Edinburg.
2) Put a couple hundred wizards into putting their reserves into a ritual for a few months. (i.e. offering consequences/declarations every so often)
3) Have the Merlin cast the 100.000 shift ritual into a generational "curse" on Humanity; a permanent ward against being fed upon by the White Court.
4) White Court starves out.


Magic has no upper limit in what it can do. With the increase in world population, there are thousands of Council-level talents out there. If the Council ever truly focused and used their full power... Of course, they are hamstrung by a largely decrepit, hidebound, largely incompetent leadership.

[vultur]

You don't go to war just because you could win. You need compelling reason

Sure, but in the thousands of years they existed before they had access to mortal nukes and airplanes and things, somebody would probably have gotten  in a fight with them.

It doesn't have to be the White Council -- but their options are probably the broadest, to the point that if they used them intelligently the White Court would be pretty helpless. The Black Court or the Red Court or Summer or Winter could have done it too.

It's just that the White Court seems so limited, balanced out by their ability to wield mortal power. But before that, what did they have?

There is that WoJ, though, that they could - though it's "very, very long odds" - end up defeating and controlling Mab. But I'm not sure how they would manage that. Maybe she's still human enough to be theoretically vulnerable to their emotion control?

-- and in this case, the White Council needs compelling reason to kill not only the White Court, but all the mortals who are going to defend them.

The wizards are going to be hamstrung by their inability to kill the mortals with magic, which turns a Warden from someone who can level whole armies into just a guy with a sword who can be taken down by arrows as well as anyone else.

Not necessarily. Not if you can imprison people with magic without harming them, which Elaine and Eb have both demonstrated. I would imagine that would probably be pretty standard Warden training, though maybe not for the Red Court War conscripts, given how they immobilize warlocks with magic and kill them with swords to get around the First Law.

[Mr. Death]

Uhuh.

1) Gather many wizards in Edinburg.
2) Put a couple hundred wizards into putting their reserves into a ritual for a few months. (i.e. offering consequences/declarations every so often)
3) Have the Merlin cast the 100.000 shift ritual into a generational "curse" on Humanity; a permanent ward against being fed upon by the White Court.
4) White Court starves out.


Magic has no upper limit in what it can do. With the increase in world population, there are thousands of Council-level talents out there. If the Council ever truly focused and used their full power... Of course, they are hamstrung by a largely decrepit, hidebound, largely incompetent leadership.

The first idea is frankly absurd in execution. Do you have any idea what sort of time and coordination something like that would take? We're talking weeks and weeks of it, while the Council does...nothing else? You think all of those wizards will consider the White Court that imminent of a threat that they're all going to drop everything for months just for the sake of wiping them out?

And you think there wouldn't be repercussions of that, to the tune of every other supernatural nation going, "Well, if they did that to the White Court, what's to stop them from doing the same to us? Let's wipe them out."

Again, I must ask, why would they do such a thing in the first place?

Sure, but in the thousands of years they existed before they had access to mortal nukes and airplanes and things, somebody would probably have gotten  in a fight with them.

They'd still have access to mortal armies, and good old fashioned obfuscation and subterfuge. That's kind of what they do.

"The White Court did this!" "I thought it was a bunch of Romans. Where's your proof?" "Well, uh..." "Right, I'm not starting a war based on your hunch."

Not necessarily. Not if you can imprison people with magic without harming them, which Elaine and Eb have both demonstrated. I would imagine that would probably be pretty standard Warden training, though maybe not for the Red Court War conscripts, given how they immobilize warlocks with magic and kill them with swords to get around the First Law.

So, wholesale subjugation of whole groups of people at a time. I'm sure that's not going to make humans wary of wizards and turn on them.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. If the White Council throws all its efforts into wiping out another supernatural nation, the other supernatural nations are going to notice and act. And that's if they even have some provable reason to do it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, sure, but most supernaturals know exactly what they are, and many of them are likely immune to manipulation...

Nobody is immune to manipulation.

Yeah, all that is true. But -- before they could get access to modern weaponry -- what would protect them from someone (Black Court, Red Court, White Council...) simply kicking in the door at a big White Court meeting and wiping out most of the leadership. The uberghouls were pretty effective at that in WN, and I think a fairly small strike force of Wardens or powerful Black Court vampires could accomplish pretty much the same thing. So how have they lasted so long?

You're wondering why large and fractious organizations in pre-modern times didn't assemble an elite strike force to assassinate the leadership of a friendly-ish faction in an unprovoked illegal surprise attack on a meeting they probably don't know about which is taking place in a location they probably can't find, knowing that their organization is almost certainly being infiltrated and manipulated by their targets?

Uhuh.

1) Gather many wizards in Edinburg.
2) Put a couple hundred wizards into putting their reserves into a ritual for a few months. (i.e. offering consequences/declarations every so often)
3) Have the Merlin cast the 100.000 shift ritual into a generational "curse" on Humanity; a permanent ward against being fed upon by the White Court.
4) White Court starves out.

Probably wouldn't work, unfortunately. The GM would interfere. Game's no fun if you just let the players win.

The exact method of interference will vary by GM, of course. I personally would probably say there's at least one enthralled wizard who deliberately sabotages the spell, causing massive fallout/backlash. Unless the players find them and stop them, of course.

And halfway through the ritual preparation an interpersonal conflict between two wizards with severe personal disagreements turns bloody. Other wizards take sides.

Also, someone tells the white court about this in advance and they do something clever in response.

And then humanity dies out because wards don't move, and with the ward in place everyone is paralysed.

Okay, I'm kidding about that last one. But honestly, the rules foundation here is dubious.

More to the point, the game and the world are not the same.