Custom True Faith powers for review

[JayTee]

Having the threshold depend on how many FP/invokes you have at hand is neither balanced nor flavor supported. If someone can negate powers through the power of his faith, then how strong his faith is should be represented and not be entirely dependent on circumstance.

I have to admit I'm confused by your critique. It's almost identical in terms of raw mechanics to the power you proposed, except it's had it's been nerfed somewhat.

Pretty sure this is impossible.

The Idea here is not to have the character generate a threshold, but instead to use the raw threshold mechanics to emulate a character possessing supernatural grace in the face of the weird.

What does this mean?

If they were to try and attack or grapple me, then the strength benefits from Inhuman/Supernatural/Mystic strength would be hit by the threshold effect.

@Taran:
It's a cool power, but my main issue with it is that it feels too... reactionary, I guess. PCs should be more proactive, IMO.

[Sanctaphrax]

If they were to try and attack or grapple me, then the strength benefits from Inhuman/Supernatural/Mystic strength would be hit by the threshold effect.

That doesn't answer my question.

I feel like we're talking in circles here. So I'll explain further. Thresholds are not all that well-defined in the rules. Saying it works like a threshold doesn't actually tell me anything.

So how does it work?

[JayTee]

The suppressor effect (YS pg 230), a power or spell loses a number of shifts equal to the strength of the threshold. So if I were to put 2 Fate Points in to Gift of Grace, spells or powers directly interact with my character or his actions would lose 2 shifts of power, as if they were hit with a threshold.

Note that it wouldn't reduce the shifts lower than their actual base skill level. If they have Fists 5 or Athletics 5 + any stunts, I still need to deal with that normally. I just wouldn't have to worry about being rendered impotent by their speed powers, or overwhelmed by strength powers.

The same applies to casting, too. Casters can still use spells, but the crazy levels of power they can throw around with refinements/focus items would be mitigated to a degree. Even I was going against a caster with no bonuses to their magic, the loss of 2 shifts wouldn't reduce their overall casting abilities below their base Lore/Conviction/Discipline.

Note that shift loss wouldn't be omni-applicable to everything the monster/caster in question does, as it's not an actual threshold, it's just a way to model a character who's actions are being guided by the divine. Actions that do not interact with the me directly would be able to work just fine at full power.

I hope this explanation helps. Let me know if I need to further clarify it.

[Sanctaphrax]

So it'd reduce Athletics bonuses from Speed or weapon rating bonuses from Strength?

How would it interact with evocation? If I have Discipline and Conviction 4 with bonuses of +3 power and control total to my fire attack spells, and I roll a -1 to hit you with a 9-shift evocation when you have 4 points of "threshold" up, and I take a point of backlash to keep my spell strong, what happens?

[Hick Jr]

If I'm reading that correctly, I'd recommend beefing it up a bit. Maybe +2 Threshold shifts per Fate Point?

[JayTee]

So it'd reduce Athletics bonuses from Speed or weapon rating bonuses from Strength?

Those would be the most common interactions, yes. Other applications of speed/strength powers could lose shifts if they were both applied against me and the skill use in question gained a bonus from supernatural powers.

How would it interact with evocation? If I have Discipline and Conviction 4 with bonuses of +3 power and control total to my fire attack spells, and I roll a -1 to hit you with a 9-shift evocation when you have 4 points of "threshold" up, and I take a point of backlash to keep my spell strong, what happens?

If I'm reading this correctly, you're gunning at me with a -1 shift, weapons 9 attack. In that case if I somehow failed to dodge it on my own (rendering the attack moot without the use of GoG), then the threshold effect would reduce the weapon shifts by 4.

For spellcraft in general I feel like it would be unfair/unbalanced if the threshold effect applied to both the power and the accuracy rating, so I think I should have to choose where to reduce the shifts before I made my own roll. Granted, I am not as familiar with spellcraft rules as I could be, so perhaps this is a poor call. I'm open to suggestions.

If I'm reading that correctly, I'd recommend beefing it up a bit. Maybe +2 Threshold shifts per Fate Point?

Maybe, depends on how balanced the crunch masters on the site deem it  . My instinct currently is a straight 1:1 as it's based off of Belial's suggestion, which used the same exchange rate.

[Taran]

thresholds reduce the power of spells, so the weapon (power 9) attack would become a power 5 spell.

It would similarly affect maneuvers targeted at you, then.  If they hit you with a power 9 "TRIPPED" maneuver, you'd only have to dodge 5  and blocks would be reduced by 4 shifts as well.

Thresholds don't affect the targeting roll of spells.

[JayTee]

I am more than okay with that.

[Sanctaphrax]

So it reduces the power of spells and the bonuses of Powers.

What if someone is using two separate Power bonuses on an attack against you? Like if some vampire super-swordsman takes a swing at you with Weapons 5 +1 from True Aim +1 from Blood Drinker, weapon 3 + 2 from Inhuman Strength.

Which bonuses get negated if you have threshold 1 up? What if you have threshold 3 instead?

If I'm reading this correctly, you're gunning at me with a -1 shift, weapons 9 attack.

Accuracy 6, actually. The dice gave -1 to a base of 4, with a +3 control bonus. Not that it matters.

[JayTee]

So it reduces the power of spells and the bonuses of Powers.

In essence, yes.

What if someone is using two separate Power bonuses on an attack against you? Like if some vampire super-swordsman takes a swing at you with Weapons 5 +1 from True Aim +1 from Blood Drinker, weapon 3 + 2 from Inhuman Strength.

Which bonuses get negated if you have threshold 1 up? What if you have threshold 3 instead?

I think the easiest answer would be to just say that it reduces the final result by X shifts, where X is the number of refresh spent on GoG, similar to how Toughness powers work. Not sure if the easiest answer is the most balanced answer, though

[Belial666]

I have to admit I'm confused by your critique.

With my version, you get as powerful an ability as you pay for in character creation. With your version, in one scene the ability might not work at all if you're out of FP, in another it might reduce rolls by a bit for a single FP, and in another it might make the most powerful supernaturals into effectively pure mortals because you got a lot of FP to spend on it. Worse than the fluctuating power is that the ability does not scale. It will be exactly as powerful in a feet in the water game as it will be for a 20-refresh game. And those two problems together make for bad ability design IMHO. Other issues below;

How would it interact with range? For example, both wizards and superstrong enemies could pick up a car and throw it at a house and not be affected by a threshold normally because they are attacking at range and indirectly. Ditto, a superfast enemy standing outside a building wouldn't gain any penalties to defense against gunners from inside the building because they'd not be standing within the house's threshold.

Does it follow the standard threshold rules? A supernatural entering a threshold doesn't actually take any penalties to rolls or whatnot. It has to set aside an amount of powers costing in refresh equal to the threshold. I.e. a 2-shift threshold means a vampire would either have to reduce their supernatural strength to inhuman, or reduce their supernatural toughness to inhuman, or reduce their inhuman speed to no benefit. The exception being wizards, who take penalties to power and control instead.
Do note that the supernatural being picks which power to leave behind when entering a threshold. They could well set aside the least useful ability for their given situation and retain those that would benefit them most.


Last but not least, a "penalty to rolls" mechanic causes issues. Strength powers and things like Claws or Breath Weapon don't give any bonus to rolls at all (weapon rating isn't rolled). Speed powers do. Toughness powers don't. Senses don't. Shapechanging doesn't - not directly. Living Dead doesn't. Flying doesn't. And so on and so forth - not only various powers exist that don't give roll bonuses at all but those that do give bonuses don't give them at the same rate. For example, Speed powers give +1 athletics per 2 refresh, True Aim gives +1 weapons per 1 refresh, Cloak of Shadows gives +2 Stealth per 1 refresh.
So if you use a "penalty to rolls" mechanic, not all powers will be as affected by the ability. (hence why normal Thresholds subtract a set amount of refresh instead)

[JayTee]

With my version, you get as powerful an ability as you pay for in character creation. With your version, in one scene the ability might not work at all if you're out of FP, in another it might reduce rolls by a bit for a single FP, and in another it might make the most powerful supernaturals into effectively pure mortals because you got a lot of FP to spend on it. Worse than the fluctuating power is that the ability does not scale. It will be exactly as powerful in a feet in the water game as it will be for a 20-refresh game. And those two problems together make for bad ability design IMHO. Other issues below;

I think there was a miscommunication somewhere, the amount reduced is static and based on how many refresh you've paid in to the power. If I have GoG -2, then the effects of powers/spells would be reduced by 2 shifts. The higher the refresh the game gets, the more points I can put in to it and the stronger it becomes.

How would it interact with range? For example, both wizards and superstrong enemies could pick up a car and throw it at a house and not be affected by a threshold normally because they are attacking at range and indirectly. Ditto, a superfast enemy standing outside a building wouldn't gain any penalties to defense against gunners from inside the building because they'd not be standing within the house's threshold.

Does it follow the standard threshold rules? A supernatural entering a threshold doesn't actually take any penalties to rolls or whatnot. It has to set aside an amount of powers costing in refresh equal to the threshold. I.e. a 2-shift threshold means a vampire would either have to reduce their supernatural strength to inhuman, or reduce their supernatural toughness to inhuman, or reduce their inhuman speed to no benefit. The exception being wizards, who take penalties to power and control instead.

Do note that the supernatural being picks which power to leave behind when entering a threshold. They could well set aside the least useful ability for their given situation and retain those that would benefit them most.

Most of this doesn't apply because it's not actually a threshold, it's just borrowing the suppression mechanics to simulate a character who possesses supernatural grace in the face of dark powers.

Last but not least, a "penalty to rolls" mechanic causes issues. Strength powers and things like Claws or Breath Weapon don't give any bonus to rolls at all (weapon rating isn't rolled). Speed powers do. Toughness powers don't. Senses don't. Shapechanging doesn't - not directly. Living Dead doesn't. Flying doesn't. And so on and so forth - not only various powers exist that don't give roll bonuses at all but those that do give bonuses don't give them at the same rate. For example, Speed powers give +1 athletics per 2 refresh, True Aim gives +1 weapons per 1 refresh, Cloak of Shadows gives +2 Stealth per 1 refresh.
So if you use a "penalty to rolls" mechanic, not all powers will be as affected by the ability. (hence why normal Thresholds subtract a set amount of refresh instead)

In general I am not worried if a power gives you an interesting trick like Wings, Claws or Breath weapon, as they're largely static abilities that can be countered with conventional armor or ranged weapons. The primary focus of GoG is to level the playing field between a True Faith character and a monster/caster using powers that can be upgraded continuously. Speed/strength/casting being the most obvious targets.

Here's a slightly reworked version that hopefully is clearer and more concise:

Gift of Grace -1
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, you may treat the bonuses granted by those powers as being 1 shift less. In the case of magic, reduce the power of a spell by 1 instead. This power may be taken multiple times.

Alternately, as suggested by Hick Jr, reduce the shifts by 2 for each purchase.

The idea here is not to remove the powers, but to ensure that the high numbers they can throw around no longer dominate the playing field as easily.

[Taran]

Can it change from exchange to exchange?  Let's as you suppress 2 re fresh worth of powers.  A ghoul attacks you with a strength power.  It does not benefit from +2 damage or the+1 it gets from grappling .  Then you attack it.  If you suppress it's +1 bonus to dodge, you effectively suppressed 4 refresh of powers.

It seems clunky to keep track of.

It might be easier for the gm to mark off which powers don't function against you and leave it at that.

[bobjob]

I personally wouldn't let the player decide which powers are suppressed. I'd let the GM decide. After all, the player will just have to have Faith that his god has his back and won't give him a problem he can't handle (or help level the playing field)

[Taran]

Why don't you make it like a building block power?

Here's my Attempt.  The numbers would have to be played with.

Gift of Grace [-See Below]
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, you become the equalizer:

[-2]Inhuman Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from inhuman Strength or Speed when targeting or dodging you.  If they have Supernatural or Mythic Speed/Str, these powers are down-graded by 1.
Spells and supernatural attacks(such as incite effect) face a 3-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.
Smite: You gain +1 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

[-4]Supernatural Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from Supernatural Strength and Speed when targeting or dodging you.  If they have Mythic Speed/Str, these powers are down-graded by 2.
Spells and supernatural attacks face a 5-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.  Your prayers give an additional +1 (for a total of +2).
Smite: You gain +2 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

[-6]Mythic Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures may not use Strength and speed powers against you.  Spells and supernatural attacks face a 7-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.  Your prayers give an additional +2 (for a total of +3).
Smite: You gain +3 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

**Certain attack would get past this.  Throwing a car at the person would still hurt like hell.  They wouldn't get the +6 weapon damage for, say, Mythic STR, but they'd still get the weapon damage of the thrown car.  Or could be pinned under said car with the appropriate maneuver since the power doesn't reduce lifting capacity.  It would reduce the bonus to grappling or, possibly, negate the bonus for modifying skills when using Might against said PC.

It also wouldn't prevent supplemental movement from speed powers, but it would negate the bonuses from doing athletic maneuvers against a target (like flanking) or dodging.  It may even negate the bonuses it gives to stealth.

I just like doing it this way because it spells it out a bit better.

**The block vs spells and incite probably need to be tweaked.  A block isn't as good as a suppression but, still, it's pretty good - especially in an ambush situation.  It can get quite high at the Mythic levels especially when paired with Bless This House.  It may be too good, but I figured, for 6 refresh, it should be better than your typical dodge.

The other option is to do it like the building block powers: +1/2/3 to dodge supernatural attacks, instead of a straight-up Block...or cap the block at Conviction + bonus from bless this House.