Walking Conjunctions...

[Belial666]

The whole issue with this though is that immortal people are basically mantles. Even with the power to kill them, you don't really kill them; the mantle immediately goes to someone else and a couple years down the line it's "Meet the new Maeve. Same as the old Maeve." In fact, if you thoroughly kill an immortal non-permanently it might take them longer to return than if you really murder the mantle's "host". And if you imprison them, you take them out much longer than in either case - potentially permanently.

That's the whole point of the existence of Demonreach; trapping immortals.

[Taran]

That's a good point.  There are other 'take out' conditions that are much more enduring than death.

[vultur]

The whole issue with this though is that immortal people are basically mantles. Even with the power to kill them, you don't really kill them; the mantle immediately goes to someone else and a couple years down the line it's "Meet the new Maeve. Same as the old Maeve." In fact, if you thoroughly kill an immortal non-permanently it might take them longer to return than if you really murder the mantle's "host". And if you imprison them, you take them out much longer than in either case - potentially permanently.

That's the whole point of the existence of Demonreach; trapping immortals.

Very true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the power couldn't exist anyway.

It presumes that gods wouldn't be more interested in the status quo than trying to profit off upsetting it. Given that entities who disrupt the status quo tend to have much shorter lives than their counterparts, I wouldn't call this a valid assumption. Think of it as a Prisoner's Dilemma on a divine level.

That may be the general rule, but what about entities that are basically personifications of destruction like Surtur or Apep, or trickster gods like Loki or Coyote? I don't think such beings would refrain from upsetting balances just because of their own safety.

[vultur]

There aren't any characters who are walking conjunctions. Any of them who were have died in accidents like having an airplane fall off the sky and onto them while they were taking a stroll, having all four tires of their car blow up leading to it falling off the road a hundred feet down a ravine only to be run over by a speeding train, or termites eating the supports in their house leading to its collapse and the subsequent explosion of the gas main.


In other words, if simply knowing the right time of the year to kill immortals makes you a fugitive, what would being able to kill them 24/7 do to you?

Unless that character is an immortal themselves...

[Sanctaphrax]

I mean, isn't paying 2 refresh for 1 stunt a little unfair?

...no.

There are plenty of abilities that are worth 2 Refresh. Killer Blow isn't one of them, though. That stunt is garbage.

That may be the general rule, but what about entities that are basically personifications of destruction like Surtur or Apep, or trickster gods like Loki or Coyote? I don't think such beings would refrain from upsetting balances just because of their own safety.

The available evidence indicates that they're not doing much to upset the balance. Unless you want to pin global warming on Surtr or something, the planet doesn't show many signs of their interference.

[Hick Jr]

I'd let you have that power for [-0] as long as you had an Aspect related to it that could be both invoked and Compelled as appropriate.

pin global warming on Surtr or something

*scribbles down awesome game idea*

[narphoenix]

Killer Blow isn't one of them, though. That stunt is garbage.

Ah. Sanctaphrax the diplomat. 

The available evidence indicates that they're not doing much to upset the balance. Unless you want to pin global warming on Surtr or something, the planet doesn't show many signs of their interference.

I think they already pinned that on Summer at the beginning of SK.

[vultur]

The available evidence indicates that they're not doing much to upset the balance. Unless you want to pin global warming on Surtr or something, the planet doesn't show many signs of their interference.

I agree. I just don't think "they're worried about being killed" is a good explanation for why they're not, if those beings in the DV are like their mythological versions (which they generally are). I think there has to be a 'hard' limit in place.

[potestas]

The whole issue with this though is that immortal people are basically mantles. Even with the power to kill them, you don't really kill them; the mantle immediately goes to someone else and a couple years down the line it's "Meet the new Maeve. Same as the old Maeve." In fact, if you thoroughly kill an immortal non-permanently it might take them longer to return than if you really murder the mantle's "host". And if you imprison them, you take them out much longer than in either case - potentially permanently.

That's the whole point of the existence of Demonreach; trapping immortals.

I think i have spoilers i here and I dont know how to do that thing so dont read if you dont want to know stuff

This whole mantle thing has really bent the dresden world. We have the new knight of the cross saying its just the person but he doesnt feel pain. We have mantles dropping left and right in the last two books. I mean really is mab a diety or is she just some gal who became mab. Maybe we got this whole mantle thing messed up or JB messed up with bringing it in. It has to be more then just "in your head" the jewish knight is wrong. one slate was  drug addict with not an ounce of juice. His mantle gave him magic strength speed and endurance. With that one example we know hes wrong. so its nore. I dont think you can just take the mantle once a person has it or once mab realized slate betrayed her she could have yanked it back, it didn't happen and the story continued. you might say she was distracted but at the end she let slate keep the mantle until Harry was ready to take it up. I think "mantle" is just a term JB is using to discuss the kind of power his characters possess. Its not something that can be slipped off and on, or is easily tradeable. Which begs the question why is Aurora even dead. Last time I checked it wasnt halloween when they duked it out. The only time immortals can die is halloween. So why is she dead.

[PirateJack]

I think i have spoilers i here and I dont know how to do that thing so dont read if you dont want to know stuff

This whole mantle thing has really bent the dresden world. We have the new knight of the cross saying its just the person but he doesnt feel pain. We have mantles dropping left and right in the last two books. I mean really is mab a diety or is she just some gal who became mab. Maybe we got this whole mantle thing messed up or JB messed up with bringing it in. It has to be more then just "in your head" the jewish knight is wrong. one slate was  drug addict with not an ounce of juice. His mantle gave him magic strength speed and endurance. With that one example we know hes wrong. so its nore. I dont think you can just take the mantle once a person has it or once mab realized slate betrayed her she could have yanked it back, it didn't happen and the story continued. you might say she was distracted but at the end she let slate keep the mantle until Harry was ready to take it up. I think "mantle" is just a term JB is using to discuss the kind of power his characters possess. Its not something that can be slipped off and on, or is easily tradeable. Which begs the question why is Aurora even dead. Last time I checked it wasnt halloween when they duked it out. The only time immortals can die is halloween. So why is she dead.

Lloyd Slate kept the Winter Knight mantle because you have to die to lose it; that's the impression I got from it at least. Aurora died because Harry had her stabbed to death on the Stone Table, which was specifically designed by the Faerie Queens to be able to kill Immortals.

[Belial666]

No, Harry specifically stabbed Aurora before she could reach the stone table and held her pinned to prevent her from reaching it while she died. IF she had died on it, there would be some Ice Age - sized problems to solve.


It's just that Harry is a) a Starborn, b) used Cold Iron and c) many of his cases happen around Halloween anyway.

[Cadd]

Bob describes the battlefield around the Stone Table as a conjunction of the model "place in space", like Halloween is of the model "place in time". This is where Aurora was killed, so she (and any other Immortal killed there) is D-E-D dead.

I don't for a second think that killing the Knight is the only way to remove that particular Mantle. There's been too many hints to the contrary, and Mab has (and had) everything to gain by letting Harry think that's the only way. It's probably ridiculously difficult and most likely requires a conjunction, but I doubt killing is the only way.

[potestas]

No, Harry specifically stabbed Aurora before she could reach the stone table and held her pinned to prevent her from reaching it while she died. IF she had died on it, there would be some Ice Age - sized problems to solve.


It's just that Harry is a) a Starborn, b) used Cold Iron and c) many of his cases happen around Halloween anyway.

too many assumptions starborn is in reference to outsiders so i doubt that was how he managed it, we don't know if it was halloween JB would have mentioned it but didnt, he probably hadent even thought of the concept at the time of winter knight. so we have a problem. a mortal wizard..and a not so good one. killed an immortal.I think we give JB too much credit.

[PirateJack]

Found the quote!

“Maeve’s an immortal, Harry. One of the least of the immortals, maybe, but immortal all the same. Chop her up if you want to. Burn her. Scatter her ashes to the winds. But it won’t kill her. She’ll be back. Maybe in months, maybe years, but you can’t just kill her. She’s the Winter Lady.”
I frowned. “ Huh? I killed the Summer Lady just fine.”
Bob made a frustrated sound. “Yeah, but that was because you were in the right place to do it .”
“How’s that?”
“Mab and Titania created that place specifically to be a killing ground for immortals, a place where balances of power are supposed to change. They’ve got to have a location like that for the important fights—otherwise nothing really gets decided. It’s a waste of everyone’s time and cannon fodder.”

[potestas]

Found the quote!

so at least it fits. nicely done.

but it begs a follow up question. If mab can just decide when to create situations to end an immortal especially one under her "control" why would she need to wait for halloween? Why did she need harry to do it? espcially since it wasn't harry that did it anyway, just one of harrys weapons.(murph). This is what I mean when i wrote in another thread that a writers work is mostly contrivance, its just how well he hides it that makes his writing good or bad. the summer lady was killed by harry because JB said she was killed by Harry. Many books later we get a reason that fits the current story that justifies all the trouble JB put Harry threw to make a story called "cold Days" and doesnt invaladate all the crap JB put Harry threw in Summer Knight.