WTF. thoughts on prowritingaid.com and hemingway and use of program editors?

[meg_evonne]

I didn't know these exist. Google search of reviews read like paid advertisements. Do you use these? Do agents and editors use them to thin the heard?

Are they crap? Are they great? Why haven't I heard of them?

[superpsycho]

Grammar programs can be helpful to highlight potential issues but in the end it's the editor that has to decide what's right. A program can really help when you're editing your own work or you're on the the second or third pass of a manuscript and your mind is filling in what should be there instead of seeing what is actually there. But you have to realize they are just one tool and you can't rely on them. An editor's own critical eye must remain the primary resource since these programs are far from being perfected and can't recognize a lot of issues.   

I've avoided any web based programs since you also have to worry about unethical setups, especially when it's other people's work you're editing. I used a program called Ginger for awhile, which is a program you can download. Mainly I just use the grammar option in MSWord.

[meg_evonne]

Thank you for the sound off. I have my own editing list a mile long, so I'm doing much of it in a slower fashion. I use the time to revise that paragraph. Things like 'ly' and the big bruiser in 1st pov -- 'I'. I also have my death star words i screw up. I search 'ed' (writing in present tense)'had' Etc for passive verb.  The repeated word function looked especially appealing. Since no one has discussed them, I was curious. I could see slush readers using them to delete manuscripts far from ready for public consumption quickly without actually having to read them.

[superpsycho]

Thank you for the sound off. I have my own editing list a mile long, so I'm doing much of it in a slower fashion. I use the time to revise that paragraph. Things like 'ly' and the big bruiser in 1st pov -- 'I'. I also have my death star words i screw up. I search 'ed' (writing in present tense)'had' Etc for passive verb.  The repeated word function looked especially appealing. Since no one has discussed them, I was curious. I could see slush readers using them to delete manuscripts far from ready for public consumption quickly without actually having to read them.

The repeated word function does sound interesting but that is one issue that isn't hard to spot. Such programs are good for the initial pass to quickly locate the obvious stuff. They can be helpful with things like dropped words, homophones and other things, where the brain will fill in the right things automatically sometimes. But they do nothing to point out dry monologs, pointless background and lifeless dialog.

I like to do it in three passes. A first read with markup. Then go back, make the correction and get it to read smoothly. Third I'll go back and try to point out the dry areas that need to be punched up to give the work texture and life.

[meg_evonne]

I'm going to give it a shot. There is a free option. If it speeds things along, great. I am a reader who will read that missing word time after time. I've learned to read each sentence backwards, literally starting at the last page and using a cut out cardboard to slide up the page. No chance to get caught up in the story that way. It forces me to only see that tiny segment.

As you can tell, my revision editing can be a several months long... *sigh*

[The Deposed King]

I'm going to give it a shot. There is a free option. If it speeds things along, great. I am a reader who will read that missing word time after time. I've learned to read each sentence backwards, literally starting at the last page and using a cut out cardboard to slide up the page. No chance to get caught up in the story that way. It forces me to only see that tiny segment.

As you can tell, my revision editing can be a several months long... *sigh*

Yeah that's no good.  Better to hand it over to betas or an editor and have them help you.  Fresh eyes and all that, they can spot stuff you'll just skim over without even knowing you're skimming.

My books have missing grammar bits in there, so long as its not egregious and you fix it when they point it out to you though your books will still sell on the indie market.  Not sure about traditional publishers.

And of course there's a matter of degree...

best of luck,


The Deposed King

[meg_evonne]

You assume I have a stable full of wonderful beta readers? Yeah, right. Ha!

[The Deposed King]

You assume I have a stable full of wonderful beta readers? Yeah, right. Ha!

Well you can always hit up Superpsycho either here or better yet over on his website on ourforumon.com, he helped beta my first couple books just because he likes to help out new authors.  I'm not saying its an auto-yes but I'm sure he'd help out however he can.

And as for other beta readers Author Craft is full of aspiring writers and active authors as is the Slush Pile on bar.baen.  These two places are where I started building up a stable of beta readers.  Help out a guy with his draft and flip around and asking for his help with yours is a great way to get the ball rolling.

But its all up to you, you get what you put into it.

all the best,



The Deposed King

[superpsycho]

Well you can always hit up Superpsycho either here or better yet over on his website on ourforumon.com, he helped beta my first couple books just because he likes to help out new authors.  I'm not saying its an auto-yes but I'm sure he'd help out however he can.

And as for other beta readers Author Craft is full of aspiring writers and active authors as is the Slush Pile on bar.baen.  These two places are where I started building up a stable of beta readers.  Help out a guy with his draft and flip around and asking for his help with yours is a great way to get the ball rolling.

But its all up to you, you get what you put into it.

all the best,



The Deposed King

You assume I have a stable full of wonderful beta readers? Yeah, right. Ha!

Sure I'd be happy to look at it. Have you worked with an editor before?
 

[The Deposed King]

You assume I have a stable full of wonderful beta readers? Yeah, right. Ha!

I mean only if you're ready or will be ready for beta readers, we can help you build a wonderful stable.  But if you're not, no worries.  This is just one of those: 'opportunity what is that?" scoffs and then there is a knock on the door.'  who knows what's on the other side?

have a good one!




The Deposed King

[meg_evonne]

You bet. It sounds wonderful, but I can't do the chapter at a time thing like Jim does. It's an all or nothing. Can't stand to let anyone see my stuff til it's as good as I can get it, although every time I head into the revision/editing phase, I'm pleased with how far my writing has come. it's also a YA crime fic, not sci fi. Would that be a problem?

Yes, I work with an editor (Ellen Larson) at the Poisoned Pencil, a YA imprint of the Poisoned Press--a long ago offshoot of the Poisoned Pen Independent book store. They are publishing my first book. She's a substantive editor. (After that it goes to the copy editors etc.) I had to look up substantive. Ha! This is the 2nd book of series. I have a two book deal. We've had one editing pass together. She's busy with other author's with pub dates before me and she writes as well. Primarily she's great at pointing out where more detail is needed or a logic problem pops up.

In the last book, the biggest suggestion was to adjust the big last confrontation. Took some time to figure it out, but it was a great thing to notice. Twisting the ending took thought and time, but it was a good change. I'm waiting for her to reply. I hope she liked it...

Thank you both, and I will take you up on that offer when the time is right. I'd like to have a second opinion from another editor to nail the manuscript. To be honest, I'm holding back a plot that I hope could be a break out novel for book 3. We'll see.

The editing program has some nice searches that will be helpful. It was worth the $35 for a year. Still it's not live people reading.

[superpsycho]

You bet. It sounds wonderful, but I can't do the chapter at a time thing like Jim does. It's an all or nothing. Can't stand to let anyone see my stuff til it's as good as I can get it, although every time I head into the revision/editing phase, I'm pleased with how far my writing has come. it's also a YA crime fic, not sci fi. Would that be a problem?

Yes, I work with an editor (Ellen Larson) at the Poisoned Pencil, a YA imprint of the Poisoned Press--a long ago offshoot of the Poisoned Pen Independent book store. They are publishing my first book. She's a substantive editor. (After that it goes to the copy editors etc.) I had to look up substantive. Ha! This is the 2nd book of series. I have a two book deal. We've had one editing pass together. She's busy with other author's with pub dates before me and she writes as well. Primarily she's great at pointing out where more detail is needed or a logic problem pops up.

In the last book, the biggest suggestion was to adjust the big last confrontation. Took some time to figure it out, but it was a great thing to notice. Twisting the ending took thought and time, but it was a good change. I'm waiting for her to reply. I hope she liked it...

Thank you both, and I will take you up on that offer when the time is right. I'd like to have a second opinion from another editor to nail the manuscript. To be honest, I'm holding back a plot that I hope could be a break out novel for book 3. We'll see.

The editing program has some nice searches that will be helpful. It was worth the $35 for a year. Still it's not live people reading.

What I do varies depending if the author is self-publishing or has a publisher but for the most part I do substantive editing. When it's non-fiction there's often a lot of research and facts to verify. And yes we do it all at once. The first thing will be to read it through to get a feel for the story and your style; then we'll go from there. Just let me know when you're ready and I'll set you up on the site.

[meg_evonne]

Will do that. And thank you.

As to writingproaid? An update: It’s a new exhaustive way to review my work. For example, it pinpoints unrelated sentences for dissection. That is helpful to concentrate on structure over content. Less helpful are grammar & syntax reports dealing specifically with character voice and dialog. It finds error while I find value.

Some of the reports are interesting, but not useful. Other reports need adaptation for the young adult writing world, i.e. short disconnected sentences that bounce are traits young adult teens enjoy.

Another example is word length. I know that using Saxon words over Latin is ideal. Example "Disconnected [Latin] from the world" reads as distant to the reader, but "Cut [Saxon] off from the world" has visceral emotion. Program picks these up and is cool. And I find it endlessly amusing that this report is called "Corporate Wording Search." Ha!

Still, my YA MC is high functioning HFA (think the female lead in The Bridge) and she is science oriented--so she uses more Latin science terms than most in thought and dialog. Of course, the program can’t differeniate between different character voice. Therefore they all come up and I'll have to weed through them.

Then there is the extremely interesting NLP Predicates Report. Wow. It breaks down my sensory words. In the initial sample (page 1-10) I'm 55% visual, 20% audible, 15% Kinesthetic, and 10% audible. My initial impression is that’s good, especially in the first pages. YA in particular wants sensory touches everywhere. Still, the words they list aren't the actual sensory words, but the reporting verbs and nouns--but I can use it.

So, (report says don't use so...) Therefore, I am pleased but exhausted thinking how I'm going to use  these reports.


Even so, there is value here. [And there were 23 issues in this posting...]

[superpsycho]

Will do that. And thank you.

As to writingproaid? An update: It’s a new exhaustive way to review my work. For example, it pinpoints unrelated sentences for dissection. That is helpful to concentrate on structure over content. Less helpful are grammar & syntax reports dealing specifically with character voice and dialog. It finds error while I find value.

Some of the reports are interesting, but not useful. Other reports need adaptation for the young adult writing world, i.e. short disconnected sentences that bounce are traits young adult teens enjoy.

Another example is word length. I know that using Saxon words over Latin is ideal. Example "Disconnected [Latin] from the world" reads as distant to the reader, but "Cut [Saxon] off from the world" has visceral emotion. Program picks these up and is cool. And I find it endlessly amusing that this report is called "Corporate Wording Search." Ha!

Still, my YA MC is high functioning HFA (think the female lead in The Bridge) and she is science oriented--so she uses more Latin science terms than most in thought and dialog. Of course, the program can’t differeniate between different character voice. Therefore they all come up and I'll have to weed through them.

Then there is the extremely interesting NLP Predicates Report. Wow. It breaks down my sensory words. In the initial sample (page 1-10) I'm 55% visual, 20% audible, 15% Kinesthetic, and 10% audible. My initial impression is that’s good, especially in the first pages. YA in particular wants sensory touches everywhere. Still, the words they list aren't the actual sensory words, but the reporting verbs and nouns--but I can use it.

So, (report says don't use so...) Therefore, I am pleased but exhausted thinking how I'm going to use  these reports.


Even so, there is value here. [And there were 23 issues in this posting...]

There is such a thing as over analysis. Such programs can be helpful in getting you to think about what you're writing but can miss the context of the culture you've created or the audience you're writing for. Sometimes you can end up spending more time dealing with non-problems then you do making progress on real issues. In the end what matters is that it reads smoothly without the reader having to hesitate or pause to figure out what is meant, either because it was phrased poorly, spelling, dropped word or other issues. Once the grammar is correct, then it's about the pace, emotion and imagery needed so the reader becomes immersed in the story and characters.


 

[The Deposed King]

I know that letting other people see your stuff can be tough, tramatic even if they are in the least bit negative.  And at the same time letting go of your draft, even for the short while someone is putting in suggestions and pointing out flaw, can feel like you're loosing control of things.

But you know what, whether its this book, or three books from now, I really advise you to find someone or someones you trust and as soon as you're done with your rough draft shoot it over to them.  Everything from logic flaws to grammar nits can be found much more rapidly with a second or third or sixth opinion.  More, that time you don't spend laboriously going over your draft adnosium until handing it off, is time you can spend writing new material.

I'm not saying don't go over it again, but let that unjaundiced eye skitter over it and give you their impressions before wading back in off the deep end.  It'll make spotting things that much easier.  Plus if you have multiples, if one person says you don't do X enough or I think this is a problem and you disagree or want to disagree and no one else is having that problem you feel free to go with your gut.  On the other hand if 5 of the 6 people are pointing to the same problem then you know its not a personal attack, even if it feels that way, instead its something you need to work on and improve.

Finally I know that everyone has their own process.  I'm sure there are some people who constitutionally can't start working on the next chapter until they've handed out the previous chapter to their beta's to read.  Which means conversely there must be some people who not only can't share their work to anyone until they think its publish worthy, they literally lock themselves in a cabin in the woods outside of all human contact until they're ready and then only correspond with their editor via the written word.

All I say is that most people probably fall somewhere in the middle of that and that if you do, my experience has been that getting help helps and the sooner I can do that in my process the better both for the story and for my time management.  I do a better job editing and have more time for writing when I do.

  I'm going to but out of this conversation now and wish you guys the best of luck!


don't let anyone get you down,


The Deposed King