An idea to allow more spell casting

[Hick Jr]

I'd let you tag/Invoke for effect to skip someone's Immunity to magic if you could justify it well enough (i.e. a really good physical link, throwing/launching a physical object, letting physics do the work on your spells).


EDIT: maybe depending on how the immunity is worded? Mostly it's "Direct mortal magic", which is pretty limited and nearly useless if your opponent isn't a moron.

[Mr. Death]

Mechanically, these are the same.  They are both 'weapon x' evo attacks.

In order to get the "oomph" from 'creative narration', I'd require an invoke on an aspect or appropriate declaration For things like throwing boulders with magic in order to bypass their magic immunity.  Otherwise, it's just cheesy.

I also wouldn't allow 'throwing' a magic immune creature in to a wall to bypass their immunity.  Their immunity would let them get thrown in the first place.

But that's just me.  Otherwise I feel it undervalues the refresh cost of that particular immunity.

Mechanically speaking, hitting a Faerie with a bronze knife and a steel one are exactly the same. The material of the weapon is just flavor.

Mechanically speaking, hitting a Black Court Vampire with a Spirit attack and a Fire attack are exactly the same. In the context of an attack, the element of the evocation is just flavor.

The Catch is built in functionality -- it doesn't need a specific invoke to get around it. If the flavor of the attack matches the Catch, then it satisfies the Catch.

[Locnil]

Mechanically speaking, hitting a Faerie with a bronze knife and a steel one are exactly the same. The material of the weapon is just flavor.

Mechanically speaking, hitting a Black Court Vampire with a Spirit attack and a Fire attack are exactly the same. In the context of an attack, the element of the evocation is just flavor.

The Catch is built in functionality -- it doesn't need a specific invoke to get around it. If the flavor of the attack matches the Catch, then it satisfies the Catch.

I got as much.

That said, how would you model Lord Raith's, the Outsider's, and the Scarecrow's resistance/immunity to magic?

[Mr. Death]

That direct hits and maneuvers with magic don't touch them, but if you fling a tree at them with magic, it bypasses the immunity.

[Belial666]

Lord Raith's immunity would be;
[-3] Physical Immunity vs Magic (protects against physical stress/consequences)
[-3] Mental Immunity vs Magic (protects against mental stress/consequences)
[-6] Extended Immunity (your immunity also applies to non-stress effects, costs as much as the immunity affected)

Unfortunately for him, he had no resistance to magic on his Hunger stress track and having a son with Maggie LeFay gave her a permanent familial sympathetic link (mother to son, son to father). So her Death Curse bound his demon, preventing him from feeding.


That level of immunity isn't common, even among Outsiders. Even HWWB4, a full Walker, doesn't have it for example. Lord Raith had probably called upon the "Lord of Slowest Terror", an Old One, to grant it to him much as he called upon him to grant use of HWWBH as an assassin.

[Taran]

Mechanically speaking, hitting a Faerie with a bronze knife and a steel one are exactly the same. The material of the weapon is just flavor.

Mechanically speaking, hitting a Black Court Vampire with a Spirit attack and a Fire attack are exactly the same. In the context of an attack, the element of the evocation is just flavor.

The Catch is built in functionality -- it doesn't need a specific invoke to get around it. If the flavor of the attack matches the Catch, then it satisfies the Catch.

I know that I wouldn't allow someone to say they had a random catch-busting sword/weapon at any given time without an appropriate declaration.  So why is a wizard different?

It adds another layer of flexibility to spellcasters over everyone else that I don't like.  A guy using a knife is either going to have a bronze knife he's not.  If he doesn't have it on his character sheet, he's going to have to make a declaration to 'just happen to have a catch-busting weapon' so I see no reason why a wizard shouldn't have to make a similar declaration.

The other reason I like the declaration aspect is it allows me to compel.

"I declare that I have ball-bearings that I shoot at him"

Compel:  Ball-bearings are weapon 4 at most.  If you want weapon 9, you need to find a very, very, very big rock...or a tank to throw at him.

[Belial666]

"I Declare there is a ground beneath his feet, then I use Earthstomp to have the ground eat him."

There's a reason Morgan with his Earth magic got within striking distance of the Red King himself in the big fight with the Red Court (not counting the one in Chichen Itza). And by the time you can pull off 8+ shift evocations, you can always find large stuff to throw at an enemy. Cars, trucks, walls, small houses, bridges and so on and so forth.
From what we've seen in the books, Earth magic is the go-to for immunity negation, Fire is the go-to for blasting dark entities and spirits, Water is the go-to for not being affected by running water and stuff and Air and Spirit are the generalist schools.


PS:
A tank would be around weapon 12. Those things weigh 60 tons. Weapon 9 is a medium truck or a large wrecking ball.

[Mr. Death]

I know that I wouldn't allow someone to say they had a random catch-busting sword/weapon at any given time without an appropriate declaration.  So why is a wizard different?

I don't see how it's random, given the ability to move stuff is part of the wizard powerset.

It adds another layer of flexibility to spellcasters over everyone else that I don't like.  A guy using a knife is either going to have a bronze knife he's not.  If he doesn't have it on his character sheet, he's going to have to make a declaration to 'just happen to have a catch-busting weapon' so I see no reason why a wizard shouldn't have to make a similar declaration.

There is no "just happen." You're right. A guy's either going to have a bronze knife or he's not. Just like a wizard is either going to have a type of spell that lets him shove rocks at people or he's not. You don't have to make a declaration for a power you already have.

Do you require a wizard make a declaration before his fire spell bypasses the stress track of a Black Court Vampire?

The other reason I like the declaration aspect is it allows me to compel.

You can compel whether they make a declaration or not.

"I declare that I have ball-bearings that I shoot at him"

Compel:  Ball-bearings are weapon 4 at most.  If you want weapon 9, you need to find a very, very, very big rock...or a tank to throw at him.

I don't really agree with this. Damage isn't just mass--it's force, too. You can bet that ball-bearings propelled with magic will be devastating. Harry outright says that the bone shards he's firing off at the Grendelkin are thrown harder than the Grendelkin's own attack of a giant rock earlier.

[Belial666]

So is it intended to replace normal spellcasting or not?

It doesn't have to, but it can. Spend only a couple of refresh and it's complementary to your primary casting. Spend a lot of refresh and it could replace Evocation altogether. It costs significantly more than Evocation for the same results but it doesn't need stress either.

[Taran]

I don't really agree with this. Damage isn't just mass--it's force, too. You can bet that ball-bearings propelled with magic will be devastating. Harry outright says that the bone shards he's firing off at the Grendelkin are thrown harder than the Grendelkin's own attack of a giant rock earlier.

What is the highest weapon value of a gun in DFRPG?  Because that's roughly what you're going to get with a small, bullet-sized item, regardless of the force, IMO.  Although, I suppose meteors can do quite a bit of damage and they can be rather small.

You don't have to make a declaration for a power you already have.

You can have Supernatural strength and punch people using your fists skill and do lots of damage, just like a wizard can hit people with fire using their discipline skill.  If you have Supernatural Strength and you want to throw a rock at someone, it has to be on the scene.  It has nothing to do with having a power.  It has everything with having the 'stuff' to throw.  Yes, I paid for Supernatural Strength but it doesn't mean there's something handy for me to throw at someone.

I don't really agree with this.

I know.  That's why I said it's how I do it.

[Mr. Death]

What is the highest weapon value of a gun in DFRPG?  Because that's roughly what you're going to get with a small, bullet-sized item, regardless of the force, IMO.  Although, I suppose meteors can do quite a bit of damage and they can be rather small.

Things mechanically propelled by gunpowder are a different story.

Put it this way: A knife is Weapon:1. A knife used by something with Mythic Strength is Weapon:7, despite still being the same small, knife-sized item. If that being with Mythic Strength throws ball bearings, are you still going to keep it at Weapon:4?

Also, it bears repeating that the Weapon rating of something doesn't necessarily correspond directly and literally to how much damage it can do. It's a representation of its general deadliness, and in this case, a Weapon:9 shot with ball-bearings might mean they're thrown not only at Mach 2, but with an incredible accuracy only possible with magic.

You can have Supernatural strength and punch people using your fists skill and do lots of damage, just like a wizard can hit people with fire using their discipline skill.  If you have Supernatural Strength and you want to throw a rock at someone, it has to be on the scene.  It has nothing to do with having a power.  It has everything with having the 'stuff' to throw.  Yes, I paid for Supernatural Strength but it doesn't mean there's something handy for me to throw at someone.

Having something specific to throw is one thing; but there can be and are settings where you don't have to declare that there's some loose object to throw because there's obviously going to be some loose object to throw. Barren plains devoid of any loose objects are pretty rare.

Besides, what I was talking about was less declaring that there's something to throw, and more about invoking that it would bypass the immunity. I was arguing that if a Wizard uses a force evocation to hurl a desk at something otherwise immune to magic, he shouldn't need to invoke further than that to get past that immunity.

[Sanctaphrax]

As for the first refresh, it is weaker than guns and far, far weaker than the other suggested version.

But it lets you switch your attack trapping to Discipline. That's major.

2 refresh make it about on par with Breath Weapon - same damage/attack, longer-ranged but no useful maneuvers yet.

You can also block forever, if you use this with normal spellcasting.

5 refresh and it becomes better than guns in damage and also provides maneuvers and blocks.

Eh. You can do so much better for 5 Refresh.

PS:
After we're done with adjusting the pricing, could you add it to the custom powers list?

Sure.

[vultur]

That direct hits and maneuvers with magic don't touch them, but if you fling a tree at them with magic, it bypasses the immunity.

I'm not sure of that, actually. If it were that simple, Eb wouldn't have had any difficulty killing Lord Raith.

It worked in at least one case (SG spoilers)

(click to show/hide)

the Genoskwa

but that's described quite differently than what Lord Raith has. I think LR's might be broader.

[vultur]

What is the highest weapon value of a gun in DFRPG?  Because that's roughly what you're going to get with a small, bullet-sized item, regardless of the force, IMO.  Although, I suppose meteors can do quite a bit of damage and they can be rather small.

At 30 kilometers/second, which is about middling for a meteor, an object has kinetic energy equal to the explosive energy of roughly 100 times its own mass in TNT.

[Belial666]

1) Eb had a problem with Lord Raith because Thaumaturgy needs a direct magical sympathetic link to the target. If the target can't be affected by direct magic, you are not going to tie any Thaumaturgy to him - at least not one targeting him in the physical or mental levels where his protection is. Eb could have thrown a meteor on the house Raith was in or make an earthquake swallow it and thus kill him indirectly but Raith was no fool; he would have never stayed long enough in the same location for a big ritual to hit him thus.

2) Attacking something with magic indirectly has happened several times. Against Lord Raith (keys), the Hecatean Hag's ritual (boulder), the Grendelkin (bones), the Genoskwa (ice), the Genoskwa and Asher (falling boulders). There may be other instances I'm forgetting ATM.


3) Throwing stuff with magic isn't the only indirect attack one can do. Morgan and his devoured-by-the-Earth spell is a good example. Yoshimo's animating a tree and having it tear several targets to pieces is another. Dresden's melting the stone beneath the ground and having it spring up as magma is a third. The gravity spell might work - especially if there's a ceiling above the bad guy's head. You'll notice that all of the above are basically Earth magic.