An idea to allow more spell casting

[HumAnnoyd]

Refinement [–1]
Spell Tolerance
Specialization bonuses can also be spent on Spell Tolerance.  You have to structure your Spell Tolerance bonuses for each ability on the same column with (OW pg.182) your Power and Control bonuses.  Your Spell Tolerance bonus can never be greater than your Lore skill.  Each point in Spell Tolerance allows you to cast a spell of a power level equal to your bonus from that element without stress. 

For example: A wizard with a Lore of 2 spends two points of Refinement and takes +1 Power Fire, +1 Control Fire, +2 Tolerance Fire.  He can cast any Fire spell at a power of 2 without suffering stress.

How does that sound?  It requires the expenditure of Refresh to purchase it and for it to be restricted by a Lore Skill.  Although maybe it should be restricted to half of Lore round up?

[Belial666]

A wizard with a single Refinement can get +1 Tolerance, +2 control for his element plus a +4 offensive control focus from his basic item slots. So he can go around firing Weapon 1 attacks, at +11 attack roll. He will never miss, and he'll be doing 6-stress hits against the best submerged defenses. And against Great rather than Fantastic defenses, you can expect 9-10 stress hits. And he'll have that at-will with effectively the expenditure of half a point of Refresh.


Far, far too cheap.

[Sanctaphrax]

The first purchase is too cheap, at least. Spell tolerance 1 is worth more than half a Refresh, but going from spell tolerance 3 to spell tolerance 5 might actually be overpriced under that model.

[HumAnnoyd]

The first purchase is too cheap, at least. Spell tolerance 1 is worth more than half a Refresh, but going from spell tolerance 3 to spell tolerance 5 might actually be overpriced under that model.

Yep.  OK.  It is too cheap.  Gave it a shot.

[Locnil]

Seperate it from Refinement, then. Maybe a [-2] power for the first level, then [-1] for each subsequent level.

A wizard with a single Refinement can get +1 Tolerance, +2 control for his element plus a +4 offensive control focus from his basic item slots. So he can go around firing Weapon 1 attacks, at +11 attack roll. He will never miss, and he'll be doing 6-stress hits against the best submerged defenses. And against Great rather than Fantastic defenses, you can expect 9-10 stress hits. And he'll have that at-will with effectively the expenditure of half a point of Refresh.


Far, far too cheap.

A character can have Mythic Toughness against magic only with just one Refresh, which basically nullifies the build above. And in any case, DFRPG combat prioritizes quality over quantity when it comes to attacks. So if you added a hike for the first purchase alone then it'll work.

[Belial666]

Maybe a [-2] power for the first level, then [-1] for each subsequent level.

See breath weapon, incite emotion and variations thereof. For balance purposes, your at-will magic shouldn't cost any less than them for the same effect. And if it doesn't, why are you homebrewing instead of using existing mechanics?

Mythic Toughness against magic only with just one Refresh

When a spellcaster is putting pennies through your left eye with earth/air magic or icicles with variations of water/fire magic, your defenses against magic aren't going to help you. When a spellcaster is lobotomizing you with a pinpoint spirit attack, no amount of physical toughness is going to help.

going from spell tolerance 3 to spell tolerance 5 might actually be overpriced under that model.

Assume full caster at your EtA game level of refresh since we're talking +5 specializations;
[-3] Evocation
[-4] Soulfire
[-10] Refinement
Evo Specs: +1 control +2 tolerance for earth, +3 power +4 control +5 tolerance for spirit
Foci: +5 offensive spirit control, +5 offensive spirit power

Cost of "Tolerance" over his basic powerset: 2,5 refresh. Let's see what he can do with it;
1) Holy blasts that also degrade toughness at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will, courtesy of Soulfire.
2) Lobotomies at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. Not quite instant mental evisceration but close.
3) Thrown objects at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. For when you need to ignore magic immunity and don't want to lobotomize people.
3) Always-on veils of strength 5. Perma-invisibility against anyone without superb senses is fun.
4) Arbitrarily high bonuses. He makes a sticky aspect at 5 shifts with spirit magic, then uses the "extend spell" option of evocation on it so it lasts until tagged at later scenes.
5) Make any skill replacements he can justify via spirit so his minimum roll for just about anything is +5
6) Summon lesser spirits at will. Never underestimate the capability of several dozen single-refresh Little Folk to kill stuff.
7) Conjure objects at will. This one is courtesy of Soulfire.



Hey, I'd totally pay 2,5 refresh over my caster's normal costs for the above. It beats getting Breath Weapon for 2 refresh who is going to give me a Weapon 2 accuracy +6 physical ranged attack at best.

[Sanctaphrax]

Breath Weapon is weak. If you already have Evocation, it's extra weak. Tolerance should be better than it.

As for your example, I'm not terribly impressed. Sure, unlimited weapon 5 accuracy 15 attacks is nice. But if your opponent can survive a weapon 14 accuracy 15 attack he's probably going to shrug them off. And if he can't, the fight won't last long enough for the stress cost of spellcasting to matter.

The evothaum tricks are more impressive. Might be a good idea to limit Tolerance to evocation proper. But even there...2.5 Refresh is rather a lot. All to do things you could do already, slightly more often.

[Belial666]

Wizard is fighting someone with Mythic Speed, Mythic Toughness, Humongous Size, Supernatural Strength, a "Large, not Slow" stunt that reduces the to-hit penalty of Size, a "Mighty Blows" stunt that enables might to modify blunt/crushing attacks, IoP giant-sized platemail with bonuses to defense and armor and a bus-sized club. That's the basic Cloud Giant package at Defense +11, physical track of OOOOOOOOO(OOOOOO) armor 5, weapon 10 attacks at accuracy +9, excellent mobility at a 20-refresh total.
This guy actually has a good chance to beat the wizard by either running him out of power before he runs out of stress if he's defense-oriented, or tanking the wizard's first couple of blows then smashing him flat if he's offense oriented. But if you give the wizard unlimited magic, he will always lose due to the wizard's stacked aspects and perpetual undodgeable attacks.


Another example is 7-8 flying Little Folk attacking the wizard with bows and stuff, or 7-8 mortal gunmen smart enough not to be all bunched up. Without unlimited magic the wizard could still win but potentially suffer some damage/consequences. With unlimited magic, the wizard simply uses his big evocation for the strongest block he can manage, then extends it with smaller doses of power every so often so it never runs out then proceeds to killinate the little guys.
Because a 12-shift block or armor 6 indefinitely extended is counterproductive to balance.

[vultur]

Wizard is fighting someone with Mythic Speed, Mythic Toughness, Humongous Size, Supernatural Strength, a "Large, not Slow" stunt that reduces the to-hit penalty of Size, a "Mighty Blows" stunt that enables might to modify blunt/crushing attacks, IoP giant-sized platemail with bonuses to defense and armor and a bus-sized club. That's the basic Cloud Giant package

If you[re talking about a D&D Cloud Giant, that's way too powerful, and they shouldn't have any Speed power likely, Inhuman at best. They do have a farily high movement speed, but Speed powers imply superhuman agility too, which giants don't have.

(They also don't need a size power above Hulking, they're like 20 feet tall. Still less massive than a T-rex which has Hulking Size.)

[Sanctaphrax]

Wizard is fighting someone with Mythic Speed, Mythic Toughness...

This guy actually has a good chance to beat the wizard by either running him out of power before he runs out of stress if he's defense-oriented, or tanking the wizard's first couple of blows then smashing him flat if he's offense oriented. But if you give the wizard unlimited magic, he will always lose due to the wizard's stacked aspects and perpetual undodgeable attacks.

I dunno about that. Weapon 5 attacks won't faze this guy much. I think the wizard might have better luck if they put their Refresh into a better alpha strike or some other combat-related thing.

Another example is 7-8 flying Little Folk attacking the wizard with bows and stuff, or 7-8 mortal gunmen smart enough not to be all bunched up. Without unlimited magic the wizard could still win but potentially suffer some damage/consequences. With unlimited magic, the wizard simply uses his big evocation for the strongest block he can manage, then extends it with smaller doses of power every so often so it never runs out then proceeds to killinate the little guys.
Because a 12-shift block or armor 6 indefinitely extended is counterproductive to balance.

Even without tolerance, a strong wizard can keep up a block longer than pretty much any fight is likely to last. The difference between forever and 12 exchanges won't matter often.

I mean, that's an impressive feat and tolerance is definitely strong in that situation, but I don't think it's game-breaking. And to the extent that it's problematic, the problems show up with the first purchase. Tolerance 2 is enough to shield yourself forever, after all.

So I stand by my belief that the costing problem is in the first purchase.

[Belial666]

If the wizard wants a strong defense spell though, they'd need two mental boxes filled (one to cast, one to extend) and would be left with even less power in a prolonged conflict. And without being able to keep defenses up from previous scenes, they could easily fall to an ambush or someone fast enough to act first and flatten them before their defense was up.

Those possibilities is something this ability would also negate. What would it cost in Refresh to still get a defense (and a big one) in an ambush, or to always have block 12 and armor 6 and veil 12 on?

@vultur:
The Cloud Giant example is Norse Jotunn. Those guys picked fights with gods and while they usually lost, they weren't pansies. Thus the ability to move like the wind, rip off vault doors with one hand and tank hits that might sink battleships. The DnD knockoff is only marginally stronger than an elephant and will die if you hit it with enough arrows. Plus, I wanted to be able to play a half-giant with human form if a 20-refresh game ever started thus this build. A full-up Cloud Giant would have also had Greater Glamours to represent nonviolent weather control and Cloudpath - a reflavored "Wings" ability to allow him to walk on air and some more powers/stunts put into magic resistance.

[Locnil]

When a spellcaster is putting pennies through your left eye with earth/air magic or icicles with variations of water/fire magic, your defenses against magic aren't going to help you.

RAW, the first still has to contend with Mythic Toughness/Immunity. Unless they compel you to have your Toughness/Immunity not apply, on the grounds that logically it shouldn't (which you can refuse). The second can be dealt with by Mythic Mental Toughness - so you'll lose 2 Refresh, in exchange for being very difficult for spellcasters to take you down.

When a spellcaster is lobotomizing you with a pinpoint spirit attack, no amount of physical toughness is going to help.
Assume full caster at your EtA game level of refresh since we're talking +5 specializations;
[-3] Evocation
[-4] Soulfire
[-10] Refinement
Evo Specs: +1 control +2 tolerance for earth, +3 power +4 control +5 tolerance for spirit
Foci: +5 offensive spirit control, +5 offensive spirit power

Cost of "Tolerance" over his basic powerset: 2,5 refresh. Let's see what he can do with it;
1) Holy blasts that also degrade toughness at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will, courtesy of Soulfire.
2) Lobotomies at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. Not quite instant mental evisceration but close.
3) Thrown objects at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. For when you need to ignore magic immunity and don't want to lobotomize people.
3) Always-on veils of strength 5. Perma-invisibility against anyone without superb senses is fun.
4) Arbitrarily high bonuses. He makes a sticky aspect at 5 shifts with spirit magic, then uses the "extend spell" option of evocation on it so it lasts until tagged at later scenes.
5) Make any skill replacements he can justify via spirit so his minimum roll for just about anything is +5
6) Summon lesser spirits at will. Never underestimate the capability of several dozen single-refresh Little Folk to kill stuff.
7) Conjure objects at will. This one is courtesy of Soulfire.



Hey, I'd totally pay 2,5 refresh over my caster's normal costs for the above. It beats getting Breath Weapon for 2 refresh who is going to give me a Weapon 2 accuracy +6 physical ranged attack at best.

As Sanctaphrax has pointed out, a few highly lethal alpha strikes are far preferable over unlimited low-power attacks, in the DFRPG system. Which is why spellcasters are so powerful - they can do the glass cannon thing better than any other template. This homebrew essentially trades off some of that damage capability in exchange for some endurance. It should be expensive, sure, but not to the extent you suggest.

[Sanctaphrax]

What would it cost in Refresh to still get a defense (and a big one) in an ambush, or to always have block 12 and armor 6 and veil 12 on?

Hm, I dunno. Maybe 3 Refresh, given how much effort and impracticality is involved. I mean, in order to get that working with tolerance 5 you'd need to spend 3 exchanges out of every 5 on renewing spells. You'd have to interrupt everything you do every 4 seconds or so. Would make it really hard to get stuff done.

PS: Bear in mind that you need to weaken a veil if you want to see through it.

[Belial666]

RAW, the first still has to contend with Mythic Toughness/Immunity.

Nope. "Immunity" and "Toughness" to magic only stops direct stress - it doesn't even stop other magical effects on you. Why would apply to a magical effect that is not cast on you at all such as the throwing of an object, which is a might effect cast on the object in order to throw it at you? The icicle thing is the same, except it splits the power into 1 shift to make the object needed, using the rest to throw. No compel you can resist there.

Besides, immunity or no there's nothing stopping the wizard from throwing you. Humanoids only weigh rank 3 mass. A rank 8 might effect would throw your magically immune self 5 zones - skywards. Enjoy your landing; falling damage in the DFRPG is 1 stress per foot fallen. If a zone is around 10 feet minimum...


EDIT:
For the cost of at-will magic, how about this;
Innate Magic [-1]
You can cast minor spells through your own innate, inexhaustible energy for one element. You can call a single shift of power and control it with your base Discipline. All the other rules of Evocation apply, except for Refinement (but see below)
[-1] Strong Innate Magic: Increase the number of shifts you can call by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Conviction.
[-1] Focused Innate Magic: Increase your Control bonus by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Discipline.
[-1] Extra Element: You get an extra Element for your Innate Magic. Focused/Strong bonuses apply to it normally. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Lore.
[-1] Arcane Implement: You get 1 Refinement. It can only be used for Power foci and enchanted items. Can be taken multiple times. Rules for crafting apply to your items as normal.

[Blk4ce]

See breath weapon, incite emotion and variations thereof. For balance purposes, your at-will magic shouldn't cost any less than them for the same effect. And if it doesn't, why are you homebrewing instead of using existing mechanics?
When a spellcaster is putting pennies through your left eye with earth/air magic or icicles with variations of water/fire magic, your defenses against magic aren't going to help you. When a spellcaster is lobotomizing you with a pinpoint spirit attack, no amount of physical toughness is going to help.
Assume full caster at your EtA game level of refresh since we're talking +5 specializations;
[-3] Evocation
[-4] Soulfire
[-10] Refinement
Evo Specs: +1 control +2 tolerance for earth, +3 power +4 control +5 tolerance for spirit
Foci: +5 offensive spirit control, +5 offensive spirit power

Cost of "Tolerance" over his basic powerset: 2,5 refresh. Let's see what he can do with it;
1) Holy blasts that also degrade toughness at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will, courtesy of Soulfire.
2) Lobotomies at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. Not quite instant mental evisceration but close.
3) Thrown objects at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. For when you need to ignore magic immunity and don't want to lobotomize people.
3) Always-on veils of strength 5. Perma-invisibility against anyone without superb senses is fun.
4) Arbitrarily high bonuses. He makes a sticky aspect at 5 shifts with spirit magic, then uses the "extend spell" option of evocation on it so it lasts until tagged at later scenes.
5) Make any skill replacements he can justify via spirit so his minimum roll for just about anything is +5
6) Summon lesser spirits at will. Never underestimate the capability of several dozen single-refresh Little Folk to kill stuff.
7) Conjure objects at will. This one is courtesy of Soulfire.



Hey, I'd totally pay 2,5 refresh over my caster's normal costs for the above. It beats getting Breath Weapon for 2 refresh who is going to give me a Weapon 2 accuracy +6 physical ranged attack at best.

However, you can't buy that much specialisations, without being a wizard. Actually, this character can't buy specialisations at all.