Evothaum question

[Blk4ce]

Do thaumaturgy specialisation bonuses carry over to evocation spells when you have evothaum? For example, a wizard with 5 Discipline, Conviction and 2 at summoning Complexity, Control. How much stress would he need for a Power 7 summoning evocation?

[Haru]

It's not really clear, so this is up to the individual group. I would let complexity specializations work as power specializations for evothaum, though I would not allow to stack complexity and power if they are overlapping, either or.

[Belial666]

Your Story page 288 disagrees.

In addition, if you already practice evocation, you may use a sponsored power source to “supercharge” an element you’ve already specialized in. So Summer magic might combine with the air element to give a “breath of life” effect; hellfire might combine with fire to produce, well, hell-fire; and Kemmlerian necromancy might combine with the spirit element to inflict
potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort of combination allows the spellcaster to use his existing evocation specialization bonuses with the new power source.

So you use your Evocation bonuses. You don't use your Thaumaturgy bonuses unless your type of sponsored magic specifically says otherwise, like Kemmlerian Necromancy does for necromancy control.

[Mr. Death]

That passage is specifically talking about the evocation side, not the Evothaum--note it's talking about supercharging elements, not talking about thaumaturgic spells.

[Taran]

Evothaum is using the methods of evocation.

Evocation's methods do not use thaumaturgy foci and specializations, it uses evocation foci and specializations.

Therefore, if you want to use your sponsored magic/evothaum, you need dedicated evo-thaum foci.

Your sponsored magic becomes an evocation element that you take foci for.

IMO

Edit:

I could see maybe using Thaum foci, but then you'd have your spells work like thaumaturgy...which means:

Attack spells have no weapon value
Blocks must always use a threshold
Veils are immobile.

[Mr. Death]

Evothaum is using the methods of evocation.

Evocation's methods do not use thaumaturgy foci and specializations, it uses evocation foci and specializations.

Therefore, if you want to use your sponsored magic/evothaum, you need dedicated evo-thaum foci.

Your sponsored magic becomes an evocation element that you take foci for.

An evocation element and a thaumaturgic specialization. The "method" just refers to the model of calling up power and controlling it instantly as opposed to over time. It doesn't make sense to force someone to double up on their specializations and foci for something they're supposed to already be good at.

Edit:

I could see maybe using Thaum foci, but then you'd have your spells work like thaumaturgy...which means:

Attack spells have no weapon value
Blocks must always use a threshold
Veils are immobile.

All those things you would just do with straight up Evocation anyway.

[Belial666]

It doesn't make sense to force someone to double up on their specializations and foci for something they're supposed to already be good at.

It does as much sense as separating thaumaturgy from evocation specialization pyramid in the first place, and using different foci for offense and defense. Different methods of magic use magical energy in different ways and you can't be good in all of them.

[Hick Jr]

This is a group-by-group variation, I find. My RL group plays kinda fast and loose with some or the magic rules in YS, so we'll let you do it both ways.

Example: Wizard A has Storm Magic and Evocation, with a +8 to Power and Control with his Sponsored element of Storm. He can do 8 shift storm evothaumaturgy.

Wizard B has Sea Magic and Thaumaturgy, with a +8 to Complexity and Control. He can do 8-shift Evothaum with the Storm element/thematic specialty.


I've personally played both types, and I prefer the second interpretation.

[Taran]

An evocation element and a thaumaturgic specialization. The "method" just refers to the model of calling up power and controlling it instantly as opposed to over time. It doesn't make sense to force someone to double up on their specializations and foci for something they're supposed to already be good at.

They're good at thaumaturgy if they put all their specializations and foci in Thaum.  They're good at evocation if they put all their specializations and foci in to evocation.

A wizard has to choose one or the other.  (S)He can't use thaum foci for evocation.
If you have a sponsored magic, I think it should be the same.  The flexibility comes in when you do things like skill replacement spells as evocation and blocks that last a whole scene.

All those things you would just do with straight up Evocation anyway.

Yes, but the subtle differences are important.  If you pump all your foci in to thaumaturgy hoping to be able to do both evocation and thaum with the same foci, you still need to deal with the disadvantages that go with thaumaturgy:

- An evocation blocks are mobile but can't do a block that reflects attacks and its duration only lasts one exchange instead of sunrise. Thaum blocks are immobile and can only be set up on a threshold
- An evocation attack has a weapon value while a thaum attack doesn't have one and the accuracy of a thaum attack is equal to its total complexity
- An evocation veil is mobile but only lasts one exchange and a thaum is immobile and lasts for a whole scene.

If you want your evo-thaum to be exactly like evocation (weapon values on attacks, mobile veils etc..) I'd say that you'd need to set your foci as evocation. 

When I GM, I use evocation foci for evocation and thaum foci for thaum.  It's just easier for me.

[Sanctaphrax]

Linkity linkity link link.

[Locnil]

Ah yes, I remembered that this was one of those questions that keep coming up. FWIW, my assumption is that control bonuses apply across thaumaturgy, but not power/complexity, partly because of similar naming, partly for fluff - controlling a ritual and an evocation seems more or less the same, but power is more about raw strength and complicity is about skill and knowledge.