magica immunity

[potestas]

this came up in another thread but i think it deserves its own discussion it concerened magical immunity stems from the quote listed below somewhat.

@Taran:
Yes, but whether an attack is magic or not would be part of the narrative, too. Though Lore and Alertness (and any other knowledge skill) allows for declarations without spending Fate Points or actions anyway so there isn't an issue if you do it your way.

thats whats kind of cheesy about "magic" in this game. if i ignite something with magic then use a magic wind to blow the now exisiting flames onto a magical immune creature does he burn. If he does then whats the difference between that and simply casting a spell that creates flame around a critter. Magic in this game is almost always about mannipulating physical forces by will. Once you create something with will it exists why should how it got their be relevent. it would probably be better to make creatures immune to certain attacks rather then "magic". Say fire or electricity.

that being said  If something has physical immunity then I would probably make it immune to elemental magic and force (kinetic energy) as well. Mental magic would be different. I would use magical immunity for non elemental effects:  mental controls certain illusions, scrying stuff that is purely magical in effect as well as how it came to be.

[bobjob]

That's certainly possible, but how much refresh are you willing to spend to give them that ability? Would it overbalance the game vs the players? Are they still having fun? To me, the whole point is telling an interesting story, not trying to find a way to break your players (although that could be fun in and of itself)

[Belial666]

If a creature is immune to fire, then it will be immune to all types of fire. That doesn't make it immune to a car or jet plane falling on it though - even though the car and jet plane are propelled by burning fuel. Neither will it be immune to firearms, even though firearms burn propellant to launch their bullets. The same applies to magic. If something is immune to just magic, it won't be immune to any projectile thrown by magic or other indirect applications.


Also, Physical Immunity only applies to stress and consequences for a base cost of 8 refresh. There is no power in the RPG to make something immune to maneuvers and blocks - so a wizard could bind a creature up with magic then cut its throat with a knife.
That's exactly what Wardens usually do to warlocks BTW - and it doesn't even violate the Laws.

[Taran]

Also, Physical Immunity only applies to stress and consequences for a base cost of 8 refresh. There is no power in the RPG to make something immune to maneuvers and blocks -

YS Page 211 (blocks)

Keep in mind that there are some blocks that
just won’t work in some situations. (Trying the
“keep them pinned down with gunfire” trick on
a loup-garou isn’t going to really help you much,
given that they’re immune to bullets.)

[Belial666]

And yet a proper magic circle works on a Loup Garou, even though you can't damage it with magic.

[Sanctaphrax]

Magic circles are weird, and the level of block immunity that comes with stress immunity is up to the GM. Pretty much everyone would let Lord Raith walk through a wall of magical fire, I think, but a wall of conjured stone might be another story.

As for the original question, don't think about it too hard. When you get right down to it, throwing fireballs doesn't actually make sense. Being immune to fireballs if and only if they were created magically doesn't make much sense either, but it doesn't have to.

[PirateJack]

Magic circles are weird, and the level of block immunity that comes with stress immunity is up to the GM. Pretty much everyone would let Lord Raith walk through a wall of magical fire, I think, but a wall of conjured stone might be another story.

As for the original question, don't think about it too hard. When you get right down to it, throwing fireballs doesn't actually make sense. Being immune to fireballs if and only if they were created magically doesn't make much sense either, but it doesn't have to.

I.e. It's magic.

[potestas]

Magic circles are weird, and the level of block immunity that comes with stress immunity is up to the GM. Pretty much everyone would let Lord Raith walk through a wall of magical fire, I think, but a wall of conjured stone might be another story.

As for the original question, don't think about it too hard. When you get right down to it, throwing fireballs doesn't actually make sense. Being immune to fireballs if and only if they were created magically doesn't make much sense either, but it doesn't have to.

this
I've always thought it weird to have "magic resistence" (unless one of my toons had it). Once fire is conjured its conjured its there it real and it burns regardless of the source. magic is like reality alteration. just because reality hs been altered doesnt make it anyless real. The room use to be filled with air now its fire. That is the new reality...deal with it. how do you become immune to a 5 ton s of conjured stone when it drops on you. if you were in the never never maybe magic resistence works cause it breaks the spell that holds the never never earth together. But in the real world conjured stone isn't necessarily from the never never. It has a more "real" quality, its effect linger after the spell is cast. I dont know really just tossing stuff out.

Physical immunity is too much for -8 since it makes you immune to everything. Maybe if each thing is costed out seperatly or if you have immunity to physical mean just kinetic force. Bullets, cars pure physical spells. But fire electricity and cold et are different and need to be spelled out as well. Immunity to magic would also have to be spelled out. Immune to illusions for -2, immunity to mental control -2, ect. immunity to harm would cover everything but i have no idea what that would cost.

[Sanctaphrax]

Once fire is conjured its conjured its there it real and it burns regardless of the source.

I dunno about that. If a fire spell was real fire, it'd mess you up almost as badly as the person you use it on.

Physical immunity is too much for -8 since it makes you immune to everything. Maybe if each thing is costed out seperatly or if you have immunity to physical mean just kinetic force. Bullets, cars pure physical spells. But fire electricity and cold et are different and need to be spelled out as well. Immunity to magic would also have to be spelled out. Immune to illusions for -2, immunity to mental control -2, ect. immunity to harm would cover everything but i have no idea what that would cost.

You might want to look at the Immunity Power on the wiki.

[Belial666]

The immunity power on the Wiki is way overpriced. The standard immunity assumes that an effective +8 to defense rolls makes you immune against someone with equal skill because they are never going to hit you. Then, with defense bonuses costing 1 refresh per overall +1 bonus, assigns Physical Immunity a base cost of 8 refresh. I'd call that a fair pricing, given the catch and it being limited to only stress and a single type of stress at that.


Compare with someone having Mythic Speed, a "Monk Training" stunt/power giving +2 to athletics defense when unencumbered, and an "Elusive Target" stunt/power allowing them to always use Athletics as their defense skill. That's 8 refresh for +5 to defense, +8 when sprinting. Your chance to hit them with a normal attack is what, one in eighty?
It's less powerful than outright immunity because sufficient FP and Aspects (or really high Control for magic) could overcome the difference BUT it applies to maneuvers and blocks as well as stress and it has no Catch -  a Knight of the Cross will still have to deal with your defense bonus while you pound him.

[potestas]

I dunno about that. If a fire spell was real fire, it'd mess you up almost as badly as the person you use it on.

You might want to look at the Immunity Power on the wiki.

i did its not bad.

[Sanctaphrax]

The immunity power on the Wiki is way overpriced. The standard immunity assumes that an effective +8 to defense rolls makes you immune against someone with equal skill because they are never going to hit you. Then, with defense bonuses costing 1 refresh per overall +1 bonus, assigns Physical Immunity a base cost of 8 refresh. I'd call that a fair pricing, given the catch and it being limited to only stress and a single type of stress at that.

I'm pretty sure that's not the logic behind the pricing, given that

a) Physical Immunity makes no reference to defence rolls or skills
b) you can still be hit with +8 to defence rolls after a bit of maneuver-stacking
c) there's nothing in the rules letting you trade Refresh for defence bonuses 1/1.

Anyway, I think the cost of the Power is pretty clearly unfair when you compare it to other defensive stuff. Mythic Toughness plus Mythic Recovery is so much worse than it, but it costs much more.

Compare with someone having Mythic Speed, a "Monk Training" stunt/power giving +2 to athletics defense when unencumbered, and an "Elusive Target" stunt/power allowing them to always use Athletics as their defense skill. That's 8 refresh for +5 to defense, +8 when sprinting. Your chance to hit them with a normal attack is what, one in eighty?

But that guy had to spend an apex skill slot. And he has a semi-significant weakness in that he has to be unencumbered to use his full abilities. Opponents can bring him down by stacking Aspects or by grappling. (He'd have a decent chance of escaping a grapple with an effective 8 Athletics, but there are some really good grapplers out there...)

Whereas against Physical Immunity guy, most opponents just can't go anything except slow them down.

Also, that interpretation of Speed's dodge bonus is debatable. It gives +2/tier to Athletics while sprinting. Does that apply to dodge rolls made the same turn as a sprint roll, or just to sprint rolls? Hard to say.

PS: Assuming a Fantastic attack skill against our dodge-master, the opponent has a roughly 6.5% chance of hitting with no invocations. At least, that's what the internet tells me.