How do you think/plot on a novel's scale?

[The Deposed King]

Hints of character interspersed in dialogue and action that provide flavor - that's how its done in short stories, so that's not what we're discussing at all. Showing the history, the day to day life and family of the detective - that's not hints. What is being suggested in this thread is making all those aspects take up chunks of the book.

(Also imo Peroit has next to no personality but that's besides the point.)

Let's use a set of movies as an example: The Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

We don't know who Jack Sparrow is. We learn that Sparrow had a ship, and his crew mutinied. His goal is to get the ship back and to take his revenge. We only learn that he was dumped on an island, and how he got off that island, because he ends up on that island again (it's plot relevant). We learn that he is a notorious pirate. That is all we learn about his background. All we know about his motivations are that he wants his ship, and that he enjoys being a notorious pirate, and that causes him to rub it in the face of the authority. Even in the third movie, we meet his father, but we don't know anything about their relationship, they don't talk about their past, nothing. And yet he is an interesting and fun character; it's what and how he does things that's interesting.

The same thing goes for the Joker. All we know about his past is that he was The Red Hood, he fell in a vat, he is now the Joker. His behavior is unpredictable, and his motivation is purely chaos. And yet he is still interesting and fun; it's what and how he does things that's interesting.

The way that you are talking, not only do we need to know all that other stuff about them because it's important, but we need to spend a good amount of time on them. But we don't.

Basically, look at any Pulp story. It's all about "What is happening right now". And what's happening right now is typically action, or the leadup to action. The story doesn't stay still. The descriptions are minimal, just enough to tell you a sense of something and then it's moving. There's next to no background, characterization is all in action or dialogue, etc.

You came here asking for ideas on how to do a novel length plot or words to that effect.  Yet so far you seem to have pretty firm ideas on what you don't want to do, covering a wide array of suggestions.

It seems to me that either you need help or advise with one critical piece that you should be able to easily identify if you turn your mind to it, or else what you need is a good swift kick in the keester in order to just go out there and write up a storm. 

Most prospective authors fail simply because they don't write the novel.  Not that they can't.  Or that they aren't good enough (I've seen some real stink bombs out there making money on Amazon).  But that instead they just don't.  'It's not good enough, I'm ruining my story, I'm not as good as Jim Butcher so why bother to continue, etc.' 

I'd say either incorporate some advise as a test or just start plugging away.  Worst case you can do a series of James Bond type serial short stories and link them all together into an overarcing plot against the shadowy Cabal.




The Deposed King

[superpsycho]

Hints of character interspersed in dialogue and action that provide flavor - that's how its done in short stories, so that's not what we're discussing at all. Showing the history, the day to day life and family of the detective - that's not hints. What is being suggested in this thread is making all those aspects take up chunks of the book.

(Also imo Peroit has next to no personality but that's besides the point.)

Let's use a set of movies as an example: The Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

We don't know who Jack Sparrow is. We learn that Sparrow had a ship, and his crew mutinied. His goal is to get the ship back and to take his revenge. We only learn that he was dumped on an island, and how he got off that island, because he ends up on that island again (it's plot relevant). We learn that he is a notorious pirate. That is all we learn about his background. All we know about his motivations are that he wants his ship, and that he enjoys being a notorious pirate, and that causes him to rub it in the face of the authority. Even in the third movie, we meet his father, but we don't know anything about their relationship, they don't talk about their past, nothing. And yet he is an interesting and fun character; it's what and how he does things that's interesting.

The same thing goes for the Joker. All we know about his past is that he was The Red Hood, he fell in a vat, he is now the Joker. His behavior is unpredictable, and his motivation is purely chaos. And yet he is still interesting and fun; it's what and how he does things that's interesting.

The way that you are talking, not only do we need to know all that other stuff about them because it's important, but we need to spend a good amount of time on them. But we don't.

Basically, look at any Pulp story. It's all about "What is happening right now". And what's happening right now is typically action, or the leadup to action. The story doesn't stay still. The descriptions are minimal, just enough to tell you a sense of something and then it's moving. There's next to no background, characterization is all in action or dialogue, etc.

What I'm hearing is a lot of excuses why you can't do it. Try taking a favorite full length novel you think is well written and try rewriting it in a different genre. A Western as SciFi or Fantasy. Don't just copy the story, make it your own. It may provide insight into the process.

Authors often complain about chapter creep. They get into the story so much, it just keeps going. It can be frustrating for publishers.

[OZ]

You seem to be arguing why you think short stories are better than novels. That's not what you asked. You asked what the difference was. Novels by their very definition are not going to be as "tightly woven" as a good short story any more than a short story is going to be as "tightly woven" as a good poem. It seems that the heart of your problem is that you don't like novels because they aren't short stories. You don't like extra plot lines. You feel that the main plot is the only important plot and everything else is only meaningful as far as it serves the main plot. In other words you prefer short stories. That's fine. That's your personal preference but don't attack people who are trying to help you write a novel by telling them you don't like novels. Your reasoning is circular and serves no purpose.

[Rechan]

The problem as I see it is I asked the wrong question. I asked for advice on Novels, and I got novel-specific answers, when what I really meant, what I should have asked, was advice on conceptualizing plots bigger than a short story can tell, because that's what I can't seem to do. My mistake not being clear enough on the onset.

To give you an example, here are the plots of some stories I've sold:

• Obsessed fan and celebrity stalker summons the ghost of the celebrity he is obsessed with, so he can be with her. It does not end well.
• A giant parasitic wasp lays eggs in a man's stomach; the pupi don't just eat his insides but take control of his body to protect the other pupi in their gestation period from predators. Here's the blow-by-blow of that from his PoV. (That wasp exists in nature btw; eek)
• A hitman is sent to kill someone, only to discover too late his target is really a vampire and he was sent as the vampire's surprise birthday present.

If I took every bit of advice from this thread and tried to make those ideas novel length, they'd fail miserably. No matter how much character, depth, tension and layers I throw at it, that is just not a big enough to build a novel on. There's no room for extra obstacles and subplots. It's not interesting enough to be a novel, and quite frankly no one is going to be interested in reading 300 pages about a celebrity stalker. But most of all of that characterization and layers distract from it, because the point is the twist ending or the events of a single scene.  The ideas I have generally can be resolved within four scenes because there's no room for expansion in them.

What I am looking for is direction on creating a plot that requires a lot of steps, that cannot be tackled in a short space. Take for example, "One man takes down an empire." You cannot show that in a short story because it requires too much setup, too many events have to happen to reach that resolution. That is a Big idea, it has a large Scope. I want to think on that level, conceptualize ideas with enough room For a subplot or multiple steps or growth.

[Rechan]

Disagreeing with some of you over what makes a novel doesn't mean I don't want to write a novel.  I see "A novel has lots of x and y". I point to novels that lack x and y. That is not objecting to novel in general, that is objecting to some novels. The examples of novels that lack x and y that I keep using are the kinds of thing I want to write.

I never objected to subplots. All I said on the topic was that some novels lack a subplot, like Storm Front. What I have heard is "add a lot of stuff about the characters." I that is what I object to.

I've seen the suggestion of taking a book like one I want to write, and analyze it. Outline it, see how the author plotted it out and how those pieces came together. That is a workable suggestion.

[The Deposed King]

"Obsessed fan and celebrity stalker summons the ghost of the celebrity he is obsessed with, so he can be with her. It does not end well."

Why can't this idea be made into a full length novel?  I mean this guy summons a ghost.  Is he a wizard, a medium or an ectomancer?  and if so, why can't him and the celebrity ghost get sucked into a Dresden style PI story.  He wants her, she doesn't want him, he can only have her around as long as he can pay the bills.  She finds Ectomantic Investigations to be incredibly interesting, if only the ectomancer wasn't around.  And as time goes on some kind of Ghost Hound or Hell Hound or something that they run across trying to pay the bills suddenly gets a hankering to snack on celebrity ghost.  End of book things don't turn out well on many levels for our obsessive ectomantic fan.

Anyway so long as your MC doesn't exist in a vacum there are going to be things he needs to do in the 'real world' that open the door for fun adventures.

Of if this isn't the story you want to write, mix and match the details.


The Deposed King

[Griffyn612]

A hitman is sent to kill someone, only to discover too late his target is really a vampire and he was sent as the vampire's surprise birthday present.

This sounds like the first couple chapters of a novel.  It's just a matter of wanting to do something different with it.

Chandler Reynolds is a hitman for hire.  He's worked for
governments, corporations, and private citizens.  He's
even worked pro bono when the need arises.  So he's
used to making enemies, and surviving retaliations.

But now he needs to figure out which of his past clients
tried to kill him.

When someone from his past hires him for a job, he
doesn't hesitate.  But when that job turns out to be
a setup, and he's meant to be a party favor for a
vampire coven's Deathday celebration, Reynolds barely
gets out alive.  He wants answers, but the client has
disappeared, and so has any trace of their existence.

Now Reynolds is in a race against time, as someone
works behind the scenes to erase him -- permanently. 

[Rechan]

"Obsessed fan and celebrity stalker summons the ghost of the celebrity he is obsessed with, so he can be with her. It does not end well."

Why can't this idea be made into a full length novel?

This sounds like the first couple chapters of a novel.  It's just a matter of wanting to do something different with it.

Hm. That's interesting.

I think I see where I'm limiting my thinking. The characters in these stories are created for the purpose of dieing. They are unsympathetic bad people doing bad things for their own reasons and it gets them killed with a twist.

A book where these stories are the end would be unsatisfying. However, you are suggesting these are the beginning. If these characters were sympathetic and the focus was on complication, then there's more room to work.

There are other plotting problems I have, but this at least helps me jiu-jitsu a short idea into a longer one. Thanks.

[LizW65]

I agree with those who think you have at least the seeds of some full-length novels in the ideas you shared up-thread; any of them could be either the opening chapters or the climax of the story. Apart from that, I probably can't help you much, as I have exactly the opposite issue: I'll get an idea and think, "Oh, that could make a nice short story!" Then I think about it a little more and realize that there's no way I can possibly do justice to it in under 100,000 words.

[Paynesgrey]

For me, scope is determined by the scope of the core concept of that particular story.  "Shaifennen and her sister encounter a local apex-predator and try not to get eaten," worked out as a long-running short, 7.7K or so.  I suppose it could be filled out to make a short novel... but 7.7 worked out just fine to tell that story, with a few hundred words worth of elements which are intended to dovetail with other stories.

Now, "Shaifennen finds a dig that will change the economic balance of power in her region and maybe even help her people reclaim their place in the stars" is gonna be three books at least. 

The initial find and immediate consequences are book one.  The less obvious consequences, reactions of other communities as they have the time to process what her find means to them socially and economically build the second book.  The endgame, the final conflicts and alliances which decide who will decide what direction the emerging civilization on her colony will take makes for the third.

Point being, I find it best to have had an idea where the story would ultimately go and allowed that to determine the length.  If a story had the possibility to be part of a more complex arc, I adjusted accordingly (as with the trilogy, which originally was going to be just one book.)  Flip side, I've had shorts grow to novellas, novels shrink to novellas and shorts because the core story was being overwhelmed by filler.  They dovetail with the rest of the stories but aren't dependent... but they really just didn't need to be longer to get where I wanted the story to end up.

[Paynesgrey]

(As always, mileage may vary.  I work best when I know roughly where I'm ultimately going.  I've got milestones and an endgame, and I build towards that.  And other people do better sitting down with a basic concept and just fly by the seat of their pants.  My method isn't "better,"  it just works for me, and the stories end up deciding for themselves how long they'll be.)

[Rechan]

(As always, mileage may vary.  I work best when I know roughly where I'm ultimately going.  I've got milestones and an endgame, and I build towards that.  And other people do better sitting down with a basic concept and just fly by the seat of their pants.  My method isn't "better,"  it just works for me, and the stories end up deciding for themselves how long they'll be.)

Having an End point certainly helps. Although some ideas the problem is figuring out where they end. The "What happens next.

Although, if you know the ending, and you know the beginning, sometimes 'what happens in the middle' becomes your problem.

[The Deposed King]

----snip---- Then I think about it a little more and realize that there's no way I can possibly do justice to it in under 100,000 words.

And this is a problem.... why?

My last novel was 150k+ and I wrote a 220k book that had to be split into two novels.




The Deposed King

[The Deposed King]

Hm. That's interesting.

I think I see where I'm limiting my thinking. The characters in these stories are created for the purpose of dieing. They are unsympathetic bad people doing bad things for their own reasons and it gets them killed with a twist.

A book where these stories are the end would be unsatisfying. However, you are suggesting these are the beginning. If these characters were sympathetic and the focus was on complication, then there's more room to work.

There are other plotting problems I have, but this at least helps me jiu-jitsu a short idea into a longer one. Thanks.

Yeah bad guy or good guy, you need the characters to be sympathetic on some level.  I'm glad that a fresh perspective is starting to help.

Go get'em tiger!



The Deposed King

[LizW65]

And this is a problem.... why?

My last novel was 150k+ and I wrote a 220k book that had to be split into two novels.

Who said it was a problem?




The Deposed King