Author Topic: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]  (Read 47650 times)

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2014, 02:55:09 PM »
  First think that jumps out at me, may pertain to the book after Skin Game..  The one that says that anything that corrupts the mind of the user.. Unless I read that wrong, the Council will really want Harry and Molly's heads now, because as been debated the Winter Mantles do mess with the mind, at the same time supposedly it puts Molly out of their reach, but perhaps not Harry?
I think you are saying that the Council would view aquiring the Mantles as a violation of the Laws because the Mantles mess with owner's mind, yes?  Im pretty sure that wouldnt apply, because that law isnt a ban on associating with corrupting forces, it's about being a corrupting force, using magic to invade and/or twist another's mind.
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline Lost Merlin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 425
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2014, 03:02:19 PM »
Yeah I think the council will be pissed with them for taking up the mantles rather than that the mantles will change them.  I think they are concerned with them spilling secrets to the Fae which then the Fae can trade to Council enemies. 

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2014, 03:41:39 AM »
I think you are saying that the Council would view aquiring the Mantles as a violation of the Laws because the Mantles mess with owner's mind, yes?  Im pretty sure that wouldnt apply, because that law isnt a ban on associating with corrupting forces, it's about being a corrupting force, using magic to invade and/or twist another's mind.

From Serack's old post..
Quote
Black Magic is any magic that warps (corrupts) the mind of the magic wielder.WoJ#2
  By that definition, since we know the mantle of the Winter Knight and supposedly the Winter Lady as well can warp the mind of the holder. So what's to stop the Council from declaring both Harry and Molly warlocks and try to give them the chop? Well, Mab may have something to say. So it isn't what is done to someone else's mind, but what happens to one's own.  Which makes sense and why the White Council has an almost zero tolerance once a young man or woman performs black magic, not matter their intentions.  They are declared "warlock," their mind corrupted beyond redemption,  and given the chop... The Merlin explains it very patiently and a bit condescendingly to Harry at the beginning of Proven Guilty.

Offline vultur

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3942
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2014, 04:42:24 AM »
I really doubt Harry is the first Council member to become a Knight of one of the Courts.  And it certainly would not be considered black magic... black magic is defined by the Laws of Magic, and there's nothing in there about "no having mantles".

Killing Slate is something else, but I don't think that really counts as a spell, so I think Harry is still OK in terms of the Laws of Magic.

EDIT: Yeah, returning to life might well get him in trouble if they think it's the Kemmler thing / what Corpsetaker was trying to do with stealing a body in GS...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 04:45:12 AM by vultur »

Offline Aegnoralkarin

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2014, 05:33:17 PM »
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already;I only read the first two pages of this thread before I had to throw this out there.

WoJ has it that every one of the Fae has a little mortal in them. 'Mortal', not 'human'. Perhaps that reconciles the two contradictory WoJs?

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2014, 06:47:06 PM »
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already;I only read the first two pages of this thread before I had to throw this out there.

WoJ has it that every one of the Fae has a little mortal in them. 'Mortal', not 'human'. Perhaps that reconciles the two contradictory WoJs?
  We tend to go for the human, because Mother Summer said the Fae breed with humans...

Offline peregrine

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8736
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2014, 07:46:45 PM »
I really doubt Harry is the first Council member to become a Knight of one of the Courts.  And it certainly would not be considered black magic... black magic is defined by the Laws of Magic, and there's nothing in there about "no having mantles".
No, the Laws of Magic define Black Magic, but that doesn't mean Black Magic is defined as what is against the Laws.  They could be wrong, they could be not as inclusive as they should be.

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2014, 09:01:17 PM »
No, the Laws of Magic define Black Magic, but that doesn't mean Black Magic is defined as what is against the Laws.  They could be wrong, they could be not as inclusive as they should be.

*nudge*
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline Aegnoralkarin

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2014, 10:09:37 PM »
  We tend to go for the human, because Mother Summer said the Fae breed with humans...

Yes, but as Maeve/Mab/Lea? [TheCuriousFan, TheCuriousFan, TheCuriousFan, I summon thee!] once said, the Fae copycat the mortal world.

But not all Fae are human form. Some take on the shape of elk, lions, goats (ahem!) et cetera.

I'd headcanon Sidhe=human-form Fae, while Fae is just a general term for the creatures one and all of Faerie.

Wraps up those two contradictory seeming WoJs in one fell swoop too!

Offline Sully

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 6347
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2014, 10:37:15 PM »
edit: never mind; didn't realize pages had passed.

I agree with that head-canon though, I do the same.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 10:39:24 PM by Sully »

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2014, 12:32:33 AM »
Yes, but as Maeve/Mab/Lea? [TheCuriousFan, TheCuriousFan, TheCuriousFan, I summon thee!] once said, the Fae copycat the mortal world.

But not all Fae are human form. Some take on the shape of elk, lions, goats (ahem!) et cetera.

I'd headcanon Sidhe=human-form Fae, while Fae is just a general term for the creatures one and all of Faerie.

Wraps up those two contradictory seeming WoJs in one fell swoop too!
Page 326 Cold Days... While yeah, the Fae can present themselves in many forms.. Mother Summer says.
Quote
She gestured at herself.  "We appear as humans, do we not?  Most of our folk do--or else they resemble another creature of the mortal world.  Hounds. birds, stages, and so forth."  "Sure I said.  "You are endlessly fascinating to us.  We conceive our children with mortals."

Offline aShorty21

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1063
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2014, 05:04:25 PM »
By that definition, since we know the mantle of the Winter Knight and supposedly the Winter Lady as well can warp the mind of the holder. So what's to stop the Council from declaring both Harry and Molly warlocks and try to give them the chop? Well, Mab may have something to say. So it isn't what is done to someone else's mind, but what happens to one's own.  Which makes sense and why the White Council has an almost zero tolerance once a young man or woman performs black magic, not matter their intentions.  They are declared "warlock," their mind corrupted beyond redemption,  and given the chop... The Merlin explains it very patiently and a bit condescendingly to Harry at the beginning of Proven Guilty.
Wait... Corrupting another's mind is against the Laws of Magic. Having one's own mind corrupted doesn't violate a law. Even if the Mantles twist Harry and Molly into all sorts of crazy, they haven't broken a law until they enter the mind of another without permission. I say there isn't even a gray area to think that simply obtaining the mantle of Winter Knight is a violation of the laws.
DV aShorty21 V1.2 YR5 FR4 BK++ RP- JB TH++ WG++ CL SW BC++ MC---- SH(Velvet Room+++++,Murphy+++,Sarissa++,Lash+,Lara+,Molly--)

Offline Sully

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 6347
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2014, 06:35:15 PM »
Besides, the laws govern mortal human wizards. The mantle is part of faerie.

And if you play with fire, well, you're going to get burnt.

You also likely become a cautionary tale to apprentices.

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2014, 09:31:04 PM »
Well, I posted my question on the AMA, upvote it if you want it to be answered too... if he's still answering that is.

I have a couple other things that I desperately want to see Jim asked (things I've already seen him answer, just not in public forums), but the one thing I don't know, really want an answer to, and suspect he will actually answer is... (leme try to word this in the most concise way possible...)

Quote from: Question for Jim
You've said on multiple occasions that Mab and all Sidhe got the way they are through a process like former dewdrop faerie Toot-Toot's growth.
You've also said in the books and in interviews that all Fae have mortal origins (mostly in context of changelings).
Could you please reconcile these two apparently contradictory ideas?
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline Orbweaver

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4570
  • Let the games begin.
    • View Profile
Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2014, 03:18:14 PM »
Oh, ok, now I get what you point out as speculation.  It's relevancy is lost on me though.

OK, I'll explain as best I can. Note that this is nothing but speculation... but that's all we ever do here anyways. :)

The DF was presumably created by an entity in its universe (and no, we don't know which one did it, though I suspect Jim does :)), existing as what is called a multiverse. The multiverse is presently being fueled by mortal decisions, in which each decision splits off a new branch, creating billions upon billions of new worlds.

But if Ferrovax had that capability at one point, and Ferrovax isn't a free willed being, how did we switch from a non-free willed entity having control over the creationary aspects of the DF to what we have now (i.e. the universe being driven and populated by mortal free-will)?

That's where the origins theory ties in. Both modes of creation are represented in the text: when Mother Winter (who does not have Free Will) imposes her will on reality, it creates a specific set of circumstances that sets boundaries for how things can and cannot exist. Yet when a free-willed being exerts his capabilities on that same reality, it can (but does not always) create a new set of boundaries, in some cases completely reversing the original context by which reality behaves.

So why have the Fae evolved separately from mortals who have free will, yet still retain a link through a tiny piece of mortality?

Because both modes have merit when it comes to doing one thing: creating reality. Mortal free will seems to be a little more potent in terms of its creation, simply due to its nature- it can and does make decisions that often contradict one another, rather than synchronize to a single idea or way of behavior (as we've seen with the majority of non-free willed beings.) The Fae are the only ones we see who have demonstrated the capability to act in both manners- making free willed choices (changelings) and making only a single choice, predicated upon previous modes of existence (those like Mother Winter and presumably Ferrovax.)

The Fae are truly the only beings in the DV who have demonstrated a capability to evolve all three ways, into changelings, Fae, and complete mortals. There's a fluidity (forgive the term, I don't have a better word to hand at the moment) in their base nature that doesn't exist in any other species.

The white court are, perhaps, the closest to the fae (closer than even humanity) as a merger between an immortal demon and a free-willed mortal. But even then, once they have 'chosen' their path, they cannot reverse it. The Fae can and do change theirs, and often, based on their allegiances and current circumstances. Their origins, by the fluidity in their nature, do point to their having emerged from a similar substance as humanity- but not necessarily the same substance.

Can you kind of see where I'm going with this? There's a link between the decision or reality-making capability of an entity, and its origins.

Quote
My theory does not exclude free willed beings causing his power to shift to another being that was already immortal, just that some free willed beings ascended by taking on power like Fero's.  It hypothesizes that most of the immortal beings with that kind of power used to be mortal, but explicitly states that there are some that this does not seem to apply to.  It also hypothesizes a possible different genesis origin for the being Fero as well.

Perhaps, but I have to point to creatures like Mab, who despite the ascendency have kept small pieces of their mortality. It would seem to point to the Fae's retained link to humanity being important in terms of their origins, rather than describing the overall scope of the creatures in the DV.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 03:47:17 PM by Orbweaver »
In a world of black, white, and grey's... I'd be bright freaking purple. Resident Female Forum Denarian.