Author Topic: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]  (Read 47637 times)

Offline King Ash

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2014, 10:10:59 PM »
Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic?  Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?

I dont think that black magic has any effect on immortals as one of their major traits is that they are unalterable (except by Nemesis), while black magic is something that alters humans. Humans can be altered because we have free will and thus are easily impacted by bad magic.
There is only one God and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death. Not Today!!!! Syrio Forel, First Sword of Braavos.

Offline Mira

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2014, 01:23:06 AM »
I dont think that black magic has any effect on immortals as one of their major traits is that they are unalterable (except by Nemesis), while black magic is something that alters humans. Humans can be altered because we have free will and thus are easily impacted by bad magic.
So if this is true, in spite of all the protections from using the Black Staff,  Eb is running a risk to himself..

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2014, 02:04:33 AM »
On the Origin of Faeries
By Means of Unnatural Selection
Or The
Preservation of Elemental Spiritual Entities in the Struggle for Life
By Charles Griffyn, PhD, Fictitious Studies

Chapter 1 - Life and Spirit
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 2 - A Change of Nature
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 3 - Evolution Paired
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 4 - A Separation of State
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 5 - Spirit Everlasting
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 6 - A Sense of Self
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 7 - A Growth of Castes
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Chapter 8 - A House Divided
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Chapter 9 - Vessels of Power
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 10 - The Essence of Three
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 11 - The Essence of Life
(click to show/hide)

Chapter 12 - Birth of a Race
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Chapter 13 - True Fae
(click to show/hide)

Offline Orbweaver

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2014, 02:16:59 AM »
First I'm not sure "who" is the best term.  Although Jim does use the term "actual beings" he also throws around terms like "cosmic forces" when describing this stuff (and a lot of his WoJ's seem to use that term specifically for Mother Winter by the way, implying to me that she encompasses more than a "who").  But yah, other than some terminology quibbles (Besides "who" I'd also prefer something other than "control" maybe influence or authority over) that's pretty much my point, and in fact it is almost explicitly stated by the 3rd WoJ.

Second, there is a bit of a chicken and the egg in my theorizing in the form of the question of, "what free will first spun out the initial disposition of cosmic forces".  Certainly not Humanity, but something I guess.  From that perspective, maybe Fero came from an older, free willed race that predated the formation of Earth itself.  Or maybe he is a construct created by something with free will to serve the purposes he did until further free will choices supplanted his significance.  (I highly suspect that this whole free will determining the shape of reality and what cosmic forces have preeminence is an iterative process)

But yes some of those things you listed are speculation, but not all, and I'd say that using the WoJ's I quoted, my theory causes the rest to be very informed speculation.  Don't agree with me?  Here's the Fero WoJ.  Defend that everything you described as speculation is.
 what same entity, which premise...
First I'm not sure "who" is the best term.  Although Jim does use the term "actual beings" he also throws around terms like "cosmic forces" when describing this stuff (and a lot of his WoJ's seem to use that term specifically for Mother Winter by the way, implying to me that she encompasses more than a "who").  But yah, other than some terminology quibbles (Besides "who" I'd also prefer something other than "control" maybe influence or authority over) that's pretty much my point, and in fact it is almost explicitly stated by the 3rd WoJ.

Second, there is a bit of a chicken and the egg in my theorizing in the form of the question of, "what free will first spun out the initial disposition of cosmic forces".  Certainly not Humanity, but something I guess.  From that perspective, maybe Fero came from an older, free willed race that predated the formation of Earth itself.  Or maybe he is a construct created by something with free will to serve the purposes he did until further free will choices supplanted his significance.  (I highly suspect that this whole free will determining the shape of reality and what cosmic forces have preeminence is an iterative process)

But yes some of those things you listed are speculation, but not all, and I'd say that using the WoJ's I quoted, my theory causes the rest to be very informed speculation.  Don't agree with me?  Here's the Fero WoJ.  Defend that everything you described as speculation is.
 what same entity, which premise...

Serack, you missed my point.

The WOJ I listed leaves a lot of wiggle room. We don't know which specific aspects of creation were assigned to Ferrovax. We don't know if any of them even still exist, in terms of his having shaped reality on the whole. We don't know how much control he had, or how or why it switched to someone or something else. That's the speculatory part, I'm not stating that Ferrovax having had control was speculation.

Your theory that it passed on to a free-willed being (or beings) may have some merit, particularly given the Dragons' resentment of humanity, but they aren't the only free willed beings around. The third quote regarding Ferrovax is supporting the idea (or premise) that free will can and does shape reality. Humans would have very little capability to change anything, were it not for that.
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Offline kingd67

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2014, 03:25:30 AM »
But that is not precisely accurate as Black magic leaves a real, detectable stain that will eventually drive you insane, and it appears there exists an artifact capable of literally sucking this stain out of you before those effects take hold.
   

But there again is the fact that it would only hold true as to the intent of the magic being used!  If it was being used in a way that would or could be considered Black then it may leave a stain as you put it, but the same "spell" used in the white wouldn't necessarily do the same.  My personal theory is not grounded in just the Dresden Verse btw!

Offline King Ash

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2014, 05:49:47 AM »
So if this is true, in spite of all the protections from using the Black Staff,  Eb is running a risk to himself..

I don't think it means that, just because it has one effect for mortals doesn't mean it has the same effect for immortals. Perhaps it is an effect of MW's ability to unravel magic, in this case it unravels the taint from mortals?
There is only one God and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death. Not Today!!!! Syrio Forel, First Sword of Braavos.

Offline Mira

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2014, 06:10:06 AM »
I don't think it means that, just because it has one effect for mortals doesn't mean it has the same effect for immortals. Perhaps it is an effect of MW's ability to unravel magic, in this case it unravels the taint from mortals?
It is possible, but somehow I doubt it.  The unraveling that Mother Winter gave Harry came from a piece of knitting that she was doing from yarn that came from her spinning wheel. The symbolism of that was too direct.  I just do not see her walking stick having the same power.

Offline King Ash

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2014, 06:35:25 AM »
It is possible, but somehow I doubt it.  The unraveling that Mother Winter gave Harry came from a piece of knitting that she was doing from yarn that came from her spinning wheel. The symbolism of that was too direct.  I just do not see her walking stick having the same power.

I'm not trying to say that her staff is specifically the same as the unravelling she gave to Harry, but that her nature as "The Unmaker, The Destroyer" when it interacts with the black magic taint on humans prevents it from having a lasting impression. I don't know, but the WC at least seems to believe its nature protects Eb. Given that he has had it for quite some time and hasn't turned into a deranged lunatic would suggest that they are right.
There is only one God and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death. Not Today!!!! Syrio Forel, First Sword of Braavos.

Offline Mira

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2014, 06:40:11 AM »
I'm not trying to say that her staff is specifically the same as the unravelling she gave to Harry, but that her nature as "The Unmaker, The Destroyer" when it interacts with the black magic taint on humans prevents it from having a lasting impression. I don't know, but the WC at least seems to believe its nature protects Eb. Given that he has had it for quite some time and hasn't turned into a deranged lunatic would suggest that they are right.
  Or it has and that will be just one more surprise that gets sprung on us in the future.. :o

Offline King Ash

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2014, 07:27:13 AM »
  Or it has and that will be just one more surprise that gets sprung on us in the future.. :o

While anything is possible, until we see some sign that he is nutso I'll take this as evidence that the WC is correct
Quote
2010 Dragon*Con @ ~1:45
When Eb does his "Laying of the Cattle move" at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain.  Yah you don't go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it's very very bad for you.  At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing.  That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn't run into in any other forum other than right there.  Yah Poor guy, He's got a tough job. 
There is only one God and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death. Not Today!!!! Syrio Forel, First Sword of Braavos.

Offline Serack

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2014, 10:10:49 AM »
Serack, you missed my point.

The WOJ I listed leaves a lot of wiggle room. We don't know which specific aspects of creation were assigned to Ferrovax. We don't know if any of them even still exist, in terms of his having shaped reality on the whole. We don't know how much control he had, or how or why it switched to someone or something else. That's the speculatory part, I'm not stating that Ferrovax having had control was speculation.

Oh, ok, now I get what you point out as speculation.  It's relevancy is lost on me though.

Quote
Your theory that it passed on to a free-willed being (or beings) may have some merit, particularly given the Dragons' resentment of humanity, but they aren't the only free willed beings around. The third quote regarding Ferrovax is supporting the idea (or premise) that free will can and does shape reality. Humans would have very little capability to change anything, were it not for that.

For the DF, on Planet Earth, that is speculation. 

My theory does not exclude free willed beings causing his power to shift to another being that was already immortal, just that some free willed beings ascended by taking on power like Fero's.  It hypothesizes that most of the immortal beings with that kind of power used to be mortal, but explicitly states that there are some that this does not seem to apply to.  It also hypothesizes a possible different genesis origin for the being Fero as well.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 10:25:56 AM by Serack »
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Offline Lost Merlin

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2014, 12:11:24 PM »
But there again is the fact that it would only hold true as to the intent of the magic being used!  If it was being used in a way that would or could be considered Black then it may leave a stain as you put it, but the same "spell" used in the white wouldn't necessarily do the same.  My personal theory is not grounded in just the Dresden Verse btw!

If you use the Laws as a base for what is black magic. Than..

I agree that the intent is important, but like all things it is a little bit of this and a little bit of that.  Bending creatures to your will is against the laws, Morgan states this in StromF after Dresden Summons captures and releases Toot-toot.  Dresden points out that he isnt really bending the creature to his will.  Dresden in DB also breaks the necromancy law, but loop holes around it through summoning a dinosaur.   But then look at Molly and using mind control (even with good intentions) left a taint on her. 

Offline Serack

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2014, 12:40:16 PM »
But there again is the fact that it would only hold true as to the intent of the magic being used!  If it was being used in a way that would or could be considered Black then it may leave a stain as you put it, but the same "spell" used in the white wouldn't necessarily do the same.  My personal theory is not grounded in just the Dresden Verse btw!

Jim has discussed that intent is not the only determining factor.  In fact, he has layed out in clear terms the importance of the results of your actions.

I went through a lot of trouble to discuss my understanding of the hows and why's of the consequences of Black Magic here.  Take a look, and see how it meshes with your thoughts.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2014, 01:24:20 PM »
Jim has discussed that intent is not the only determining factor.  In fact, he has layed out in clear terms the importance of the results of your actions.

I went through a lot of trouble to discuss my understanding of the hows and why's of the consequences of Black Magic here.  Take a look, and see how it meshes with your thoughts.
  First think that jumps out at me, may pertain to the book after Skin Game..  The one that says that anything that corrupts the mind of the user.. Unless I read that wrong, the Council will really want Harry and Molly's heads now, because as been debated the Winter Mantles do mess with the mind, at the same time supposedly it puts Molly out of their reach, but perhaps not Harry?

Offline Serack

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2014, 01:43:16 PM »
  First think that jumps out at me, may pertain to the book after Skin Game..  The one that says that anything that corrupts the mind of the user.. Unless I read that wrong, the Council will really want Harry and Molly's heads now, because as been debated the Winter Mantles do mess with the mind, at the same time supposedly it puts Molly out of their reach, but perhaps not Harry?

I'm having a little trouble following you, so I'll just provide you with the WoJ that sums up pretty much everything I know about book 16.  (Thanks TCF for bringing it to my attention)

Quote from: 2013 Salt Circle interview
John: Given the events of Changes through to Cold Days, what's Harry's relationship with the White Council now?

Jim:He doesn't know yet, I don't want to give too much of that away, but uh, goodness, they are not going to be terribly pleased with him. The last wizard that they had that was running around, dying and then coming back again kinda caused them a little bit of trouble. They don't really appreciate that sort of thing too much, so as usual Harry is showing all the signs of being a horrible monster and if you don't know him that's what he looks like. And the White Council, they've never really had any patience for him and I'm sure that they will continue to be their charming and generous selves.
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