Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]

[Mira]

I would argue the exact opposite:  that the position of Blackstaff exists specifically to preserve the rules and morals, that it exists to protect the Spirit of the Laws from their Letter, so that legalese shenanigans cant be used to sidestep the protections that the Laws were intended to provide.  And this is the point I think Harry missed in the books: If you have one License to Kill, you dont give it to the cold-blooded murderer, you give it to the person you trust most to act responsibly with it.  Harry jumped straight to the assumption that McCoy was a political stooge of the Council rather than, in some ways, its conscience. 
 

  I was not thinking of the "morality"  of using the Blackstaff, rather the consequences to the user.

Jim has set up the Blackstaff as essentially a mind shield to protect from the consequences of performing black magic, and has reinforced that this is it's mechanism when used by a mortal in many many WoJs.

The avoiding the consequenses part is the only reason why I hesitate to say that wielding it can't be an abuse as long as it is a Mortal's free will that is doing the acutal wielding.  To me the actual question of interest is, "Will wielding the power result in becoming an immortal, and losing your free will all together?"

This gets at some of what I was asking.. But you bring up another very important question...  Is wielding the Black Staff, black magic?  If the theory is correct that the Black Staff is Mother Winter's walking stick, did she wield black magic with it?  Or for her, was it merely a walking stick?  Or did she use it like Nanny McPhee?  So if she did, and it is for black magic use, does this make Winter evil?  Or in proper hands is black magic not so bad a thing?

[Lost Merlin]

Just a WAG here but what if Mother Winter was the "Blackstaff" for the supernatural community.  Keeping everyone in balance to make sure that out stayed out and no one inside got too uppity?

[Mira]

Just a WAG here but what if Mother Winter was the "Blackstaff" for the supernatural community.  Keeping everyone in balance to make sure that out stayed out and no one inside got too uppity?

Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic?  Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?

[Lost Merlin]

Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic?  Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?

Does Fae magic have a black side? What would constitute black magic for Fae? For Wizards we say that mid manipulation is black (mab did to harry), Killing humans is black magic (dont have an example from the book, but I am sure it has happened).

[Serack]

Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic?  Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?

Does Fae magic have a black side? What would constitute black magic for Fae? For Wizards we say that mid manipulation is black (mab did to harry), Killing humans is black magic (dont have an example from the book, but I am sure it has happened).

I think this is closer to the right questions.  In chosing black magic, black magic becomes more in your nature.  In some ways it seems that it effects nature too.  The choices made in Fae heritage/antiquity apparently already changed them to the point that their natures are more set in stone and less likely to change anyways, so no worrying about corruption.  They are already bloodthirsty monsters in many cases...

[Quantus]

Does Fae magic have a black side? What would constitute black magic for Fae? For Wizards we say that mid manipulation is black (mab did to harry), Killing humans is black magic (dont have an example from the book, but I am sure it has happened).

I dont think so because a)the primary consequences of black magic are affects on ones soul, and Fae dont have them, and B) we've seen do all kinds of things that would be Black Magic (forced transformation of people into animals, mind reading, killing, compulsions, etc).

That being said, they may have other limits, relative to the Laws.  For example tehy may not be able to do Necromancy, as it is a fundamentally different energy source.  We know they cannot Summon Outsiders, though they can cooperate with them once the infiltration has occurred. 

[Mira]

Does Fae magic have a black side? What would constitute black magic for Fae? For Wizards we say that mid manipulation is black (mab did to harry), Killing humans is black magic (dont have an example from the book, but I am sure it has happened).


I think this is closer to the right questions.  In chosing black magic, black magic becomes more in your nature.  In some ways it seems that it effects nature too.  The choices made in Fae heritage/antiquity apparently already changed them to the point that their natures are more set in stone and less likely to change anyways, so no worrying about corruption.  They are already bloodthirsty monsters in many cases...

That kind of fits old Mother Winter don't you think?  Or rather what we picture black magic as being, but in her hands is it evil?  Harry used to practically wet his pants anytime he had to deal with Mab.. He considered her evil along with her other titles like the Queen of Darkness.  However we are now seeing that the picture is much more complicated.  So is Mab really evil or is she a powerful Fae with a nasty job that has to be done.. Defending the Outer Gates against the Outside ain't beanbag..

[Lost Merlin]

she didnt get to be Queen of air and darkness by collecting bottle caps

[Quantus]

That kind of fits old Mother Winter don't you think?  Or rather what we picture black magic as being, but in her hands is it evil?  Harry used to practically wet his pants anytime he had to deal with Mab.. He considered her evil along with her other titles like the Queen of Darkness.  However we are now seeing that the picture is much more complicated.  So is Mab really evil or is she a powerful Fae with a nasty job that has to be done.. Defending the Outer Gates against the Outside ain't beanbag..

Its a matter of some debate.  Personally I think she is very much a vicious Evil bitch, just a vicious Evil bitch that has had her Evil channeled into a Job that needs doing. 

[aShorty21]

Its a matter of some debate.  Personally I think she is very much a vicious Evil bitch, just a vicious Evil bitch that has had her Evil channeled into a Job that needs doing.

It's ok and kinda cool when Darth Vader is on your team.

[Serack]

That kind of fits old Mother Winter don't you think?  Or rather what we picture black magic as being, but in her hands is it evil?  Harry used to practically wet his pants anytime he had to deal with Mab.. He considered her evil along with her other titles like the Queen of Darkness.  However we are now seeing that the picture is much more complicated.  So is Mab really evil or is she a powerful Fae with a nasty job that has to be done.. Defending the Outer Gates against the Outside ain't beanbag..

Titania's stated sole purpose for all her power and dominion equal to Mab's her self is to keep Mab in check.  I'm not always happy with all the usage of the terms evil and abuse of power and all that in this thread, but I think we can be assured that Mab is a Monster.  With a capital M.

Sacrifice her best troops?  Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate.  And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.

A Monster with a purpose mind you.  But...

[Quantus]

Titania's stated sole purpose for all her power and dominion equal to Mab's her self is to keep Mab in check.  I'm not always happy with all the usage of the terms evil and abuse of power and all that in this thread, but I think we can be assured that Mab is a Monster.  With a capital M.

A Monster with a purpose mind you.  But...

That probably a better way to put it, yes.  She has power, and that power has purpose.  But her definition of that purpose appears to be (by that WOJ) "Keep the Outsiders Outside", which has nothing to do with protecting those that are "Inside" even though that is the beneficial side-effect. 

[Mira]

That probably a better way to put it, yes.  She has power, and that power has purpose.  But her definition of that purpose appears to be (by that WOJ) "Keep the Outsiders Outside", which has nothing to do with protecting those that are "Inside" even though that is the beneficial side-effect.

  Yeah, Mab is a monster, but she is our monster...   She does what she feels she has to do, even if with a hint of sadness as in killing her own daughter..

[kingd67]

We have some seriously interesting conversations going on here! 

One thing, with the discussion of magic as either Black, Gray or White it is my belief that magic is not inherently any of these it is simply magic, the intent with which it is used is what would determine into which category it would fall.  So you could have two wizards use the exact same "spell" and it would only be considered B, G or W as to the intent to which is was used.

[Quantus]

We have some seriously interesting conversations going on here! 

One thing, with the discussion of magic as either Black, Gray or White it is my belief that magic is not inherently any of these it is simply magic, the intent with which it is used is what would determine into which category it would fall.  So you could have two wizards use the exact same "spell" and it would only be considered B, G or W as to the intent to which is was used.

But that is not precisely accurate as Black magic leaves a real, detectable stain that will eventually drive you insane, and it appears there exists an artifact capable of literally sucking this stain out of you before those effects take hold.