Magic Shields vs. Incite Emotions

[Blackmako]

Hello,

I wanted to clarify for an upcoming game if a magic shield can "block" or "armor" vs the mental attack of incite emotion. If so would it only be Spirit Magic?

If magic can block/armor vs mental attacks what would be the mechanism? What I understand from the book is that a magic user can either block all types of damage vs a single opponent OR one type of damage from all sources. Is that understanding correct?

How should a spell be priced to block mental attacks and physical attacks? Or is it a one or other proposition?

Basically the party is know encountering monsters that incite despair and rage.

Thank you in advance.

[Haru]

Well, you could always put up a mundane discipline or conviction block, when facing such an opponent. You can narrate that by forcing yourself to think happy thoughts or murmuring a prayer when facing it. That's basically doing a defense roll before the attack happens.

That being said, putting up a magical block like that should be no different, and I would not allow a block against mental and physical attacks from the same spell. The reason would be in the narrative justification, which I see in turning a spell inward or outward.

For example you could call on fire to help protect your mind from the monsters, calling upon its connection to warmth, the hearth-fire, the sun and summer in general, and so forth. You would use those elements of fire magic, instead of actual fire, that could build up a barrier between you and the monster.
Other magical elements would, of course, use different justifications to put up such a block.

The all for one or one for all rule is usually used for offensive blocks, I think. Like you can either block all actions on one target or one action (for example movement) on multiple targets.

[Mr. Death]

Given the precedent of Harry making a trinket and spell to protect himself and Murphy from the mind-fog, I think it fits to allow defense against mental attack in general.

[umdshaman]

As far as I understand the RAW you can put up ANY kind of block, period (within the confines your GM allows, of course). The downside to a universal block is that anything one might do can potentially bypass it, increasing the options to break the block without expending resources.

[Sanctaphrax]

Normally...

Generally speaking, if the block can affect more than one person, it can only prevent one type of action. If the block only affects one person, it can prevent several types of action - up to all of them - as context permits.

But evocation blocks are a little different than normal ones. They break when overcome, for one thing. And protecting multiple allies has a shift cost. So it's not totally clear how those general guidelines work with evocation.

Anyway, I would advise against making spirit the only element capable of blocking mental attacks. It's already the best element.

[Taran]

I would separate physical blocks and mental blocks, although I'm a bit torn.  The narrative of your block could justify either.  An air block could make you look fuzzy.  Which could cause both a mental and physical block to miss...just because the enemy is having a hard time targeting you - not because it's physically (or meta-physically) stopping the spell.  An earth spell can do the same by putting up a physical barrier that blocks line of sight.

But that's narrative justification and as they say, "A block is a block is a block" and I wonder if you should punish the less creative players who can't think up a proper justification since, mechanically, if they say "I'm blocking attacks" it should be able to block all attacks.

On the other hand,

 a water rote set up to stop bullets isn't going to stop a mental attack because it uses the physical barrier.

A water spell set up to stop mental attacks will work but it works on a meta-physical level.  It would be based on water's ability to degrade and counter-spell. Entropy.  But there's no physical substance to it, so it couldn't stop a bullet.

If it's not a rote, I wouldn't worry about it.  They could say, "I block against incoming attacks" and adjust the spell accordingly for mental or physical.  Following that "a block, is a block, is a block", though, I'm not sure you should penalize rotes over a spontaneously cast spell.

In any case, I wouldn't limit it to Spirit Magic.  I think, any element can be justified.

[Taran]

If magic can block/armor vs mental attacks what would be the mechanism? What I understand from the book is that a magic user can either block all types of damage vs a single opponent OR one type of damage from all sources. Is that understanding correct?

Double post:

I think you're misunderstanding.

What you can block against has nothing to do with "type of damage"  it has everything to do with "Type of ACTION"

So you could block

All Attacks Targeting me!
The target (ME) is limited; the action (attacks) is limited;

All Action on Monster!
Target (1 monster) is limited; the Action is unlimited (all actions include attacks, maneuvers, movement)

You couldn't say.
I block all actions vs all enemies because that is an unlimited amount of targets and an unlimited amount of actions.

So the more all-encompassing the target, the more restrictive the action-type that can be blocked
The more specific the target, the more encompassing the Block.

As Sanctaphrax says, With spells, though, you might be able to say, I block all actions from all enemies because you're paying a 2 shift penalty.  In that case, I'd look at narrative justification.  HOW is the spell working?  Is the caster using plants?  Is there enough plant-life in the zone?   On the other hand, your spell is two shifts lower and ANY one enemy who breaks the block will destroy the spell and free everyone and they can use any skill they want...so the spell might not be as kick-ass as it might seem.

[Mr. Death]

I think mental blocks wouldn't involve the physical element so much as the metaphysics of the element.

An air block against mental attacks wouldn't be because they couldn't see you or it 'deflects' the attack--it'd be because Air represents a clear, tranquil mind.

A fire block would stop a mental attack because it represents your strength of will and passion.

An Earth block, your bedrock stubbornness.

And so on.

[toturi]

I think a block is a block is a block. But if the GM wants to bypass the block and if he thinks he has a good justification for it, he can offer a Compel.

[vultur]

I think mental blocks wouldn't involve the physical element so much as the metaphysics of the element.

I agree.

[killking72]

I don't really understand how you could justify using an actual spell block to block something in your head. Yes the flavor of water magic is entropy; degradation and such, but you're using entropy magic, inside you head. I would say you'd entropy your own thoughts and mind to do that. Also you specifically said "Incite emotion". The primary skill used to keep your emotions in check is discipline, or conviction if you can flavor it correctly. If you want to be able to use a magical block against incite emotion then hell, it must obviously be fine for someone to put up a magical block in a social conflict because someone is using intimidate to scare you. You're using a magical block to protect against someone trying to make you mad, or scare you.

[toturi]

I don't really understand how you could justify using an actual spell block to block something in your head. Yes the flavor of water magic is entropy; degradation and such, but you're using entropy magic, inside you head. I would say you'd entropy your own thoughts and mind to do that. Also you specifically said "Incite emotion". The primary skill used to keep your emotions in check is discipline, or conviction if you can flavor it correctly. If you want to be able to use a magical block against incite emotion then hell, it must obviously be fine for someone to put up a magical block in a social conflict because someone is using intimidate to scare you. You're using a magical block to protect against someone trying to make you mad, or scare you.

The spell uses entropy magic to shield the mind. Think of it as a moat around your thoughts, instead of a castle wall.

Alternatively I can also see using water magic to enhance your brain's thought processes in a way similar to Bruce Lee's "be water" philosophy. Incoming mental attacks simply find no purchase as your mind's sea part before the attack and crash and drown out the attack.

[killking72]

Think of it as a moat around your thoughts, instead of a castle wall.

Incoming mental attacks simply find no purchase as your mind's sea part before the attack and crash and drown out the attack.

Both of these seem like a maneuver though. Nothing in this thread has actually given any actual reason magic should block incite emotion, other than why not. When something incites emotion in your head, yes it's supernatural, but you could say that it's just the mental version of a social attack, inward instead of outward. Anywhere in the books and in the RPG books, Dresden uses discipline to control his conflicting thoughts. When someone is trying to upset him, he defends with his self control. When you use the sight, you defend with discipline to see how resolved your mind is against seeing the beauty/horror. There just really seems to be no logical reason to use magic in this situation. The bottom line is that you aren't blocking some kind of spell. What you're blocking is the massive surge of emotion. The amount of emotion the vampire is making you feel at a certain shift emotional power, and you block by trying to keep those emotions in check. Doing it that way makes sense, and also goes along with the theme of magic not always being the solution.

[Blackmako]

Thanks for the responses. I will make sure that magic users have a viable narrative for whatever element used for defense.

My understanding of Incite Emotion is that it is a mental attack (certainly with potent and lasting emotion). It does cause stress damage to the mental track. In the story I am running it is an Outsider blasting despair (as a maneuver first). In the story it is not a social attack. More like a cthuluesque making everyone in vicinity go insane with eldritch horror and the insertion of alien thoughts.

Just wanted to certain of magic block mechanics so the the magic users can defend against this attack for a bit without having to lose mental stress/gain mental consequences thereby rendering them without mental gas for magic. They are aware of what they are fighting and have experienced this attack before. I anticipate that they will shield upon seeing one again.

[killking72]

Well since you're going up against an outsider I'm going to assume you have wizards in your group. Wizards are really dangerous when they've had time to prepare research and enchanted items to deal with a specific opponent. Yes if you were to do this as a maneuver to cause uncertainty in your players, that has a lot of narrative power. And what you said makes little sense, you want them to avoid having to take mental stress from the incite emotion so they wont run out of gas, by having them, depending on rolls and such, take mental stress from casting the shield from the potentially hard hitting psychic attack. If anything, if your group has thaumaturges who aren't using that power enough, I'd just sit back and watch them squirm.