Grappling (poke a stick at these house-rules)

[Taran]

I'm playing a game where they've house-ruled grappling and it got me thinking about the RAW rules.  I've always liked the grapple rules but a couple of things kind of bugged me about them.

My biggest complaint is that only 1 person can do the supplemental actions.  It seems to me, if two people are grappling each other, they should be able to block/hurt each other.

My thoughts:
1. Make it an extended test.  It might work well in a 1 on 1 fight, but in the middle of a combat, it'll probably get wonky.

2. Taran's House-rule vs. 1.0

Bob and Doug are fighting...

(click to show/hide)

Bob wants to grapple Doug, so he does a Might Maneuver resisted by Doug.  A Might or regular Dodge to resist.

If successful both Bob and Doug are (both) "Grappled"
- You may not move zones as a supplemental or sprint while grappled.

They can maneuver, block and attack each other as normal with some exceptions:
 - Large weapons may not be permitted (GM has final say)
 - Might becomes the default skill for attacking/defending
       - if you have a STR power, you get +1/level of STR Power and you get +1 damage/level
 - Other skills(fists, weapons, discipline (for magic)) may be used but they are restricted by Might
 - You can move yourself and your opponent one zone but it is an opposed roll
 - You may end the grapple as a free action at any time.  If the person you are grappling doesn't want to end the grapple, it is an opposed roll using Might(by default) and it uses up your action to do so.  Although, other skills may be used: Intimidate, resisted by discipline, for example.  You could use Athletics to "wiggle" free also.  (GM discretion)
- You can throw your opponent 1 zone.  It's an opposed roll and it ends the grapple if successful.

Outside the Grapple:
 - if you want to attack/maneuver anything/anyone outside the grapple, you face a block equal to the Might score of the person you are grappling(minimum 1).  (strength powers add +1/level)
- People outside the grapple can aid by setting up maneuvers etc... like normal.

In practice:
Let's say a guy(Bob) with Great Might and 2 levels of STR is grappling a wizard(Doug) with Great Discipline and a +2 control focus item.  How would it play out?

Doug is only using Discipline to cast spells at +3 (since it's restricted by Might)
Bob could try to "disarm" the focus item, reducing Doug's chances even further.

but

Wizards tend to have fairly devastating evocations.  If Doug hits with a spell, it's going to hurt.  That said, Bob is dodging with Might at +6.

Thoughts, suggestions, alternate ideas?

[umdshaman]

Couple of points.

Supplemental actions are very minor (relatively speaking). You can't take non-supplemental actions without breaking the grapple.
The defender IS capable of doing whatever they want, provided their relevant roll beats the grapple check. So theoretically, under the current rules, you can grapple back while grappled... then you can both take the supplemental actions. Of course, if you're both damaging each other for 1 a turn its going to come down to stress so its probably not the best option.
Grapple is intentionally restrictive. In fact, grappling should probably be called "wrestling". You are trying to keep your opponent in a lock and as anyone who's ever done martial arts can tell you, those can be pretty painful (stress). Some leave both combatants on their feet, which allows you to use the pain of the lock to maneuver your opponent (movement). If what you really want to be doing is some sort of maneuver and release martial art (essentially throws) then you're probably looking at a straight Might (or Fists) attack.

[Taran]

Supplemental actions are very minor (relatively speaking). You can't take non-supplemental actions without breaking the grapple.

By the RAW rules, no.  But this is a house-rule.  And a 1-shift maneuver every round is fairly good, actually.

The defender IS capable of doing whatever they want, provided their relevant roll beats the grapple check.

Yes.  This I know.

So theoretically, under the current rules, you can grapple back while grappled... then you can both take the supplemental actions. Of course, if you're both damaging each other for 1 a turn its going to come down to stress so its probably not the best option.

Which is why I want to house-rule it to make grappling cooler and more fun.

Grapple is intentionally restrictive. In fact, grappling should probably be called "wrestling". You are trying to keep your opponent in a lock and as anyone who's ever done martial arts can tell you, those can be pretty painful (stress). Some leave both combatants on their feet, which allows you to use the pain of the lock to maneuver your opponent (movement). If what you really want to be doing is some sort of maneuver and release martial art (essentially throws) then you're probably looking at a straight Might (or Fists) attack.

The current grappling rules already have a rule for both throwing and moving someone 1 zone. 

The way I've written it, it's still restrictive but it's only restrictive outside of the grapple.  It's less restrictive against the person you're grappling because, yes, locks n' stuff are going to hurt.  Which is why doing maneuvers and attacks against the person in the grapple doesn't suffer a block. (but is still restricted by Might)

But I've already thought of how this particular house-rule could be broken:
Someone with Claws and Superhuman STR with a Fists of 4 and Might of 3 (feet in water) could initiate a grapple, use Fists to attack with no penalty (since having a str power let's you use any skill without Might being a restriction) and attack with an apex skill and do +6 weapon damage while simultaneously creating a block against that opponent at +5.
A stunt that let's you use Might as an attacking skill would complicate things too because you could argue that you get the +2 bonus to hit with your claws while grappling.... 

To me, the biggest reasons for grappling, in most games is to:
1. prevent someone from running away
2. Protect your allies
3. Contain a particularly deadly opponent/Limit an enemies options
4. Choke someone out, while doing the above.

But It looks like I'm back to the drawing board.

P.S
For grapples I like the idea of one person initiating a grapple and, only afterwards, they find out the other person is way better at it.  So when the first person tries to leave the grapple the second person can force them to stay in.  Which is why I like the idea of both parties being "grappled" simultaneously and ending the grapple an opposed roll.

[umdshaman]

Apparently I misunderstood what you were looking for. I was just giving you my thoughts and suggestions on how the current grapple rules could solve your problem.

[Taran]

Apparently I misunderstood what you were looking for. I was just giving you my thoughts and suggestions on how the current grapple rules could solve your problem.

No problem.  I actually like the current grapple rules...I just feel like they could be improved, somehow...

[Haru]

I think there's a difference between grappling and wrestling. Wrestling is a physical conflict, where both opponents can attempt to hurt their opponent. A grapple is one opponent getting the upper hand, putting someone in a headlock, pushing them to the ground, things like that, and it can be almost as good as taking someone out. Keep in mind though, that putting someone into a grapple requires an aspect to tag, so you can't just do so out of the blue, you have to set your opponent up for it, so he has a chance to resist the grapple before it happens. If he decides not to, or he fails his roll, you are free to reap what you have sown.

So yeah, one side having the upper hand here is totally ok to me, they earned it. The supplemental actions reduce the strength of the grapple, so that's fair as well. If you can't get out on the first try, I would also allow nave gazing maneuvers, readying yourself to apply a burst of strength to get out, for example. The grappler wouldn't necessarily be able to oppose that maneuver, and it would give you a bonus on getting out later. Though it doesn't just have to be strength, any action the table finds reasonable can work here. Athletics to wiggle your way out and sprint away, for example. Deceit to throw sand in your opponents eyes. Just make it interesting. If your opponent has strength powers and you don't, you've got a problem regardless.

If you want to make the grapple more than it currently is, you could zoom in on it by making it a contest instead of a single roll. This can be especially interesting, if both opponents are trying to do the same thing. Just let them roll strength, athletics, endurance and such against each other and see who comes out ahead.

[Taran]

I thought of a contest but I don't think it would work during a combat.  And contests only work if both people are participating.  OFten, one person is grappling someone who'd prefer to not be grappled.

I think the example I did above could work...somehow...but it needs to be tweaked...