Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)

[Falconer]

Hi, I’m trying to build a homebrew sponsored magic for a sorcerer/wizard who specialises in dealing with spirits.
I’m using Kemmlerian Necromancy (YS 291) as my template and going for something with a similar set of bonuses as I want it to be more based on specialist knowledge acquired from an outside source (like Kemmler’s lore) rather than a power granted by an outside source like Seelie or Unseelie Magic.
Here’s a rough draft of what I’m looking at so far.

Spirit Walker/Shaman

Cost:
-   Must already possess some spellcasting ability with some specialisation in Animancy (Thematic thaumaturgy dealing with spirits, akin to Ectomancy and ghosts – I’m using Anima as the Latin for spirit or soul)
-   Must have access to a source of spiritual lore e.g. a helpful (or helpless) spirit to pump for information (possibly in a past tense, I can see a dark sorcerer torturing spirits for info.)
-   Cost is 2-4 refresh depending on possession of Evocation and Thaumaturgy and whether they are required in order to have this power or whether it’s available with only channelling or ritual.

Benefits:
-   Standard sponsored magic benefits.
-   +1 Control, +1 Complexity to Animancy
-   Use Animancy with evocations speed and methods
-   Use control bonus from Animancy for evocation instead of discipline provided that the casting incorporates some spiritual element.

Questions that I’m asking myself:
-   Kemmlerian Necromancy gives more bang for your buck with an additional thematic thaumaturgy type at evocations speed and methods (Psychomancy). Does the potentially broader nature of Animancy make up for that e.g. there are all sorts of spirits, elemental and emotional. In which case is this too broad a focus? Should there be some additional bonus when specifically summoning and binding spirits (e.g. consider your complexity and control to be one step higher)?

-   Kemmlerian Necromancy specifies that you may use your control bonus from thaumaturgy to control evocation spells if you include some element of death in the spell’s description. What should be my inclusion here? Should elemental evocations be more “alive” transposing sapient characteristics onto spells? E.g. a stream of water which twists through the air like a roiling serpent almost as if it were actively seeking its prey. No mechanical bonuses beyond the control bonus mentioned, I'm just asking about flavour.

-   What to do about the debt...
o   I’m wondering what the cost should be if they use sponsored magic to invoke aspects (for debt rather than fate points). Should they be pushed towards the nature of the spirits they’re “channelling” (at least empathically)? E.g. repeatedly calling upon spirits of the earth could lead you to become set in your ways and unwilling to compromise on issues, whereas water spirits could make you more emotional and induce mercurial behaviour. It would probably be most clear cut with thematic spirits e.g. phobophages or hunter spirits inciting you to inflict terror in others or leading you to act like a predator without mercy or conscience. This could eventually lead to aspect changes e.g. blazing temper, or immovably obstinate. Spirits are stated to understand friendship but not morality, could repeatedly putting yourself in their shoes make it harder for you to retain your own moral compass?
o   Alternatively they could be compelled to assist spirits with their own agendas e.g. you have been drawing on a spirit of the earth, they demand your assistance in sabotaging a project to bulldoze a sacred grove or they’re cutting you off...

Thank you for taking the time to read this, any thoughts or criticisms would be welcome

[Taran]

-   What to do about the debt...
o   I’m wondering what the cost should be if they use sponsored magic to invoke aspects (for debt rather than fate points). Should they be pushed towards the nature of the spirits they’re “channelling” (at least empathically)? E.g. repeatedly calling upon spirits of the earth could lead you to become set in your ways and unwilling to compromise on issues, whereas water spirits could make you more emotional and induce mercurial behaviour. It would probably be most clear cut with thematic spirits e.g. phobophages or hunter spirits inciting you to inflict terror in others or leading you to act like a predator without mercy or conscience. This could eventually lead to aspect changes e.g. blazing temper, or immovably obstinate. Spirits are stated to understand friendship but not morality, could repeatedly putting yourself in their shoes make it harder for you to retain your own moral compass?
o   Alternatively they could be compelled to assist spirits with their own agendas e.g. you have been drawing on a spirit of the earth, they demand your assistance in sabotaging a project to bulldoze a sacred grove or they’re cutting you off...

Thank you for taking the time to read this, any thoughts or criticisms would be welcome

I'm not really good a judging mechanics for sponsored magic or home-brew stuff.
I could suggest a bonus to "convincing" spirits to help you once they are summoned.  So a bonus to the actual social or mental conflict to "bind" them.


Your descriptions of various ways of going into debt seem really good.  More than I would have suggested.  I like it.

[narphoenix]

So something like this?

SUPERIOR ECTOMANCY [-2]
Description: A master wizard can refine her skills in a particular area so fully that her abilities are qualitatively different from those of a normal mage. While normal specialization simply makes one faster and stronger and more effective, this level of focus provides entirely new capabilities. A wizard with this level of power over ghosts attracts ghosts to herself and can use them to affect the living with all due haste
Sponsor: This Magic is Self Sponsored
Agenda: As this magic is self sponsored, it lacks an agenda
Evocation: This magic does not provide Evocation
Thaumaturgy: This power does not provide Thaumaturgy
Evothaum: All Ectomancy may be cast with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: Immediately gain the benefits of the Ghost Speaker. However, the power of the wizard who has taken this makes it more extreme. You may use Contacts at +2 when dealing with the dead, but spirits can physically harm you, even if they are unable to manifest.

Is something like this up your alley? Or do you want something else?

[Haru]

JayTee has a spirit caller character in Rising Tides. We solved this by simply giving him Thaumaturgy, but his spells are colored by the spirits. So when he had to go under water, he didn't just cast an air bubble around him, he called some water sprites for help, who balanced the pressure around his body and filtered the oxygen out of the water to allow him to breath. Works pretty well, I think.

Sponsored magic could work similar, just maybe with a bonus, and you've got a few spirits who always follow you around to do your bidding.

[umdshaman]

Disclaimer: The whole self-sponsored thing rubs me the wrong way. It tends to just represent a magical specialization which is achievable with refinements. A lot of it seems to be based on Kemmlarian Necromancy but as I understand the article, it's not "self-sponsored" (nor is it actually sponsored by Kemmlar) but rather by death itself (or at least spirits of death) who are pretty willing to let anyone who can figure out how use their power.

What's the idea behind it, though? That tends to have a pretty big effect on what makes sense.

For instance, if you're looking to create a someone who uses spirits to power their magic in the Dresden Universe, you're probably looking at standard sponsored magic with a particular spirit as your sponsor. At the GMs discretion, you might even be able to contract with multiple spirits by taking Refinement.

If you're looking at someone who (like Harry) specializes in contracting with Spirits, you might just be looking at a specialized power (like Worldwalker or True Shapeshifting) that gives bonuses to ward/summoning/binding and negotiations. Or, alternatively, just using a collection of stunts and Refinements. Then any cost to the spirits' help is a function of the narrative rather than an arbitrary agenda.

[Sanctaphrax]

If you're looking at someone who (like Harry) specializes in contracting with Spirits, you might just be looking at a specialized power (like Worldwalker or True Shapeshifting)...

That's exactly what self-sponsored magic is. A specialized power representing an unusual spellcasting ability.

Well, usually. Occasionally it just represents that you're badass enough to sponsor your own flavour of magic. But that's not usually for PCs.

Benefits:
-   Standard sponsored magic benefits.
-   +1 Control, +1 Complexity to Animancy
-   Use Animancy with evocations speed and methods
-   Use control bonus from Animancy for evocation instead of discipline provided that the casting incorporates some spiritual element.

I don't like that last bit. Replacing a skill with a specialization is just weird. It often won't be a benefit at all, and it might be problematic when it is.

Questions that I’m asking myself:
-   Kemmlerian Necromancy gives more bang for your buck with an additional thematic thaumaturgy type at evocations speed and methods (Psychomancy). Does the potentially broader nature of Animancy make up for that e.g. there are all sorts of spirits, elemental and emotional. In which case is this too broad a focus? Should there be some additional bonus when specifically summoning and binding spirits (e.g. consider your complexity and control to be one step higher)?

I wouldn't worry about it. Kemmlerian Necromancy gives more bang for its buck than any other sponsored magic that I can think of. It includes 3 1-Refresh bonuses for the price of 2.

[umdshaman]

That's exactly what self-sponsored magic is. A specialized power representing an unusual spellcasting ability.

Not precisely. Sponsored Magic provides a very specific set of benefits across the board. The idea of using it to boost an existing magical ability is sort of an edge case. The idea of self-sponsored magic at all is something that, as far as I can tell, was essentially created by these forums. Either way, the Sponsored Magic power's benefits include the ability to accrue debt. But what does self-sponsored magic accrue debt toward? If there is no sponsor, then there can be no external agenda, so there is no meaningful mechanical impact. In fact, the unusual spellcasting abilities are NOT represented by Sponsored Magic in the book and I'm pretty sure this is why. Refinements could garner you the same bonuses, so if you created an "Evothaum" power most of these "self-sponsored" magics wouldn't be needed at all. I realize you're going to disagree with me, of course, but it doesn't make me wrong.

[Blk4ce]

I wouldn't worry about it. Kemmlerian Necromancy gives more bang for its buck than any other sponsored magic that I can think of. It includes 3 1-Refresh bonuses for the price of 2.

Probably because it requires that you are already a wizard/necromancer and have access to some portion of Kemmler’s lore (or its equivalent) (whatever that means, probably an aspect).

While on subject, where does the sponsor debt come from? Kemmler is pretty much dead, so?

[Taran]

Probably because it requires that you are already a wizard/necromancer and have access to some portion of Kemmler’s lore (or its equivalent) (whatever that means, probably an aspect).

While on subject, where does the sponsor debt come from? Kemmler is pretty much dead, so?

I like this:

(nor is it actually sponsored by Kemmlar) but rather by death itself (or at least spirits of death) who are pretty willing to let anyone who can figure out how use their power.

[Sanctaphrax]

The idea of self-sponsored magic at all is something that, as far as I can tell, was essentially created by these forums.

Yep. By JayTee, specifically.

Not sure who wrote the first actual examples, but it might have been me.

Either way, the Sponsored Magic power's benefits include the ability to accrue debt. But what does self-sponsored magic accrue debt toward?

Normal Compels. It's explained in the Power writeup.

Refinements could garner you the same bonuses, so if you created an "Evothaum" power most of these "self-sponsored" magics wouldn't be needed at all.

Not so. Refinement can't duplicate the extra benefits of Superior [Insert Field Here].

Also, there is an evothaum power.

I realize you're going to disagree with me, of course, but it doesn't make me wrong.

Other way around, if you ask me. You're not wrong because I disagree, I disagree because you're wrong.

[umdshaman]

Normal Compels. It's explained in the Power writeup.

Part of the inherent drawback of Sponsored Magic (as I understand it) is the threat of being forced to obey someone else's agenda so that doesn't really work for me. What I'm getting at is that there are better ways to represent specialization than Sponsored Magic without an agenda.

Either way, the OP now has my perspective and my reasoning and can decide if that's useful to them or not. Really, that's the only point of posting after all.

[Sanctaphrax]

Having to obey someone else is just another type of Compel. It's no worse than any other type of Compel.

And if you have a better way to represent specialized casting, I'd be happy to hear about it.

[umdshaman]

Method 1 [min -2]: Ritual: Animancy (you gain the Ritual power for all thaumaturgy related to spirits where spirits are a class of non-physical Nevernever entity similar to demons or ghosts.) Optionally Refinements in Foci allowing for off-the-cuff spells up to twice your Lore rating. Optionally Evothaum if your GM is a stickler and you want to be able to cast Animancy rituals quickly.

Method 2 [min -3]: Thaumaturgy with a specialization in Animancy. Optionally Refinements for specializations and/or Foci. Specializations may take bonuses above twice Lore but require a more well-rounded character. Optionally Evothaum, as above.

Method 3 [min -3?]: Ghost Speaker. Spirited Negotiator. This isn't as powerful, overall, as using spells would be but it does not cause the character to take mental stress which is a huge bonus if your character specializes in dealing with spirits. Optionally, many characters built with this will likely have some sort of House Spirit. Optionally, you may take Stunts since Stunts stack with the bonuses provided below. (eg: +2 to Conviction when containing a spirit or ghost. +4 to Rapport when dealing with a specific wind spirit).

Spirited Negotiator [-2?]
Musts: You must have Ghost Speaker.
Ghost Sense. You may use Contacts or Lore to find a specific ghost or spirit, or one who meets your needs. This will not FORCE a spirit to come to you, so you may need to go "out and about" (per the Contacts skill). You might try sending another spirit to do this on your behalf, of course, but who knows how that might work out.
Ghostbuster. Once per scene (or 15 minutes, where more appropriate), you may use Lore or Conviction to create a Ward to contain a hostile ghost or spirit. You gain a +2 bonus on this roll if the conflict takes place in a location specifically prepared for containment (such as your laboratory or sanctum).
Abjuration. Once per session (or day, where more appropriate), you may use Lore or Conviction to strengthen the barrier to the Nevernever as an action. If your roll is higher, your result becomes the new barrier rating in this location until sunrise.
Cold Read. Due to your experience dealing with non-corporeal entities from the other side you have become very good at determining what they want. +2 to all social rolls involving spirits or ghosts, as long as you are trying to come to an agreement.

House Spirit [-1]
Sometimes a spirit will develop an attachment to a particular location; often a house. It is also possible to create this attachment intentionally (through True Magic) although doing so without the spirit's permission will often provide more curse than blessing. Such spirits are attached to the threshold of a location and (in fact) feed off of it.
Musts: You must take an aspect relating to the spirit and its location of residence. You must either be a resident of this location or it must have no residents.
Loyalty. House Spirits first dedication are always to the place they inhabit and the "family" who lives there. The spirit cannot take any hostile action except against invading spirits or overtly hostile forces.
Symbiotic Spirit. A House Spirit feeds on the threshold of a location, however as long as the spirit resides there, the threshold can never fully decay. The threshold is considered to be +1 (min 1).
Spirit Buddy. A typical House Spirit is often little more than a mote of light or gust of wind, serving small tasks around the house; such as lighting candles or sweeping up dust. These effects are little more than scenery pieces. They are also able to go anywhere outside their residence on (though they usually don't have any reason to) but must return by sunrise.
Tied to the Threshold. The House Spirit can also be more firmly tied to the threshold. When taking this power, you may voluntarily reduce the threshold of the residence (min 1) to increase the power of the spirit. Doing this should severely limit the spirit's ability to leave the threshold. How exactly this works is up to you and the GM, though a point of threshold being worth a skill point or two seems reasonable.

A 'default' house spirit has a single mild consequence and 3 skill points which do not need to follow normal spending rules. However, the spirit only has access to the skills it has points in.

I tried to make this also be a reasonable way to stat out Bob, although if we're using these rules Bob's skull is probably an Item of Power who's only effect is to create a very large threshold. I also didn't want to add a whole bunch of twitchy mechanics to a rules-light game for the 'minion' NPC so apologies if it seems a little vague.

[vultur]

I have to say that Self-Sponsored magics aren't my favorite thing ever.

I think they're mechanically fine, but I kind of like keeping the distinction between Sponsored Magic and regular magic. I mean, I would say that somebody like Kringle or Maeve probably has "self-sponsored" Unseelie Magic ... in the sense that they have the power by virtue of who they are and not because somebody else granted it to them, and they probably experience sponsor debt mostly as compels of their High Concept... but that's a bit different than something like Superior Worldwalking which is just a representation of really exceptional skill and not an external power source (or even a "stapled to your soul" power source like a mantle).

I would personally give someone like the Merlin a custom Stunt/Power allowing him to do wards without a threshold rather than Superior Warding. (And he could get Evothaum for Wards separately, but I'm not convinced he has that; a defensive line of Wardens could have protected him well enough for him to do a couple of exchanges of thaumaturgy the normal way, IMO.)

[Taran]

I like doing specialists by giving them Evocation and breaking them down into untraditional "elements".

So a specialist Fire mage ( pyromancer)might have :  Light; Smoke; Heat (for example)

Then he can take specializations and refinements in those elements