Help with an Artificer

[umdshaman]

http://toonstore.net/Shaman/Winters1/

I'm mostly posting the character sheet for background. I currently have 8 (7-strength) enchanted items listed. Anyone see any problems with the design or math on those?

And since this is basically the characters 'one trick' and I probably won't get a chance to change them for a while after the game starts, does anyone have suggestions for enchanted items to add/replace those on the list? They should probably be targeted at 7 strength, but could go up to 10 if necessary.

[Taran]

I couldn't access the character....I have a PC who's submerged who's an artificer.  He has Power 10 attacks/blocks with accuracy 5.

He's also got a sword that's usable by other Players.  Weapon 9, 5 times/day.  So, given to the melee Monster, it'd be quite potent.

If he gave himself a Discipline 10 item, he could use that for his accuracy, giving him accuracy 10; weapon 10 items.

For your perusal:
Ethan McGrath

Edit:  He could have done his items a bit better.  With Blocks of 8 or 10, he could have added duration...
For instance, with Power 10 Blocks, he could do Block 6/armour3 on the whole party for 3 exchanges.  That's, basically, Mythic Toughness-type Armour for an entire combat.

[Cadd]

I can't make the math for Ethan McGrath add up... By my count he's got one refinement worth of stuff extra... Unless "Time Manipulation" adds stuff aswell.
Thaum gives 2 Focus Slots and 1 Specialization.
He has a total of:
3 Specializations - the free from Thaum leaves 2, making that 1 Refinement,
6 Focus Item Slots - the two free from Thaum leaves 4, that's 2 Refinements,
8 Enchanted Item Slots, equalling 4 Focus Slots, making another 2 Refinements.
This adds up to 5 Refinements, but he only has -4 for Refinements

Anyway, On topic:
Overall I think Winters looks good. Only really two things - one mechanical and one "tactical".
The mechanical one - The Orbius spell used as basis for the silver chain bracelet is really wonky. I like the idea of an item causing a grapple, but how is it "administered"? Do you have to physically "hit" the target with the chain, and then trigger the items effect? If so, that could be the "create relevant aspect" needed to instigate a grapple. Orbius as written bypasses the action economy of grapples in a weird way.
Also, assuming the action economy thing works out - a power:3 grapple seems like it could be a touch weak, I'd probably up the strength a bit at the cost of duration, you could always "retrigger" to increase duration.

The tactical one - He has a lot of zone-wide stuff. Does he have a way to not be affected himself by them? Or protecting his allies? At least the quartz and obsidian orbs seems like they're gonna target the zone he stands in decently often, and they might be as much an inconvenience to himself as his enemies.

[Taran]

I can't make the math for Ethan McGrath add up... By my count he's got one refinement worth of stuff extra... Unless "Time Manipulation" adds stuff aswell.
Thaum gives 2 Focus Slots and 1 Specialization.
He has a total of:
3 Specializations - the free from Thaum leaves 2, making that 1 Refinement,
6 Focus Item Slots - the two free from Thaum leaves 4, that's 2 Refinements,
8 Enchanted Item Slots, equalling 4 Focus Slots, making another 2 Refinements.
This adds up to 5 Refinements, but he only has -4 for Refinements

His character is complicated...so, it's possible there's a mistake.  I went over it several times and had him change stuff.  As well, we went through a couple milestones, so there's a chance things got changed since I last looked at it.
Edit: Thaum gives 2 foci +1 specialization
        Time manipulation is a sponsored magic: 2 more foci

4 refinements gives: 8 foci/specializations
= 12 foci +1 specialization



******

Anyway, On topic:
Overall I think Winters looks good. Only really two things - one mechanical and one "tactical".
The mechanical one - The Orbius spell used as basis for the silver chain bracelet is really wonky. I like the idea of an item causing a grapple, but how is it "administered"? Do you have to physically "hit" the target with the chain, and then trigger the items effect? If so, that could be the "create relevant aspect" needed to instigate a grapple. Orbius as written bypasses the action economy of grapples in a weird way.
Also, assuming the action economy thing works out - a power:3 grapple seems like it could be a touch weak, I'd probably up the strength a bit at the cost of duration, you could always "retrigger" to increase duration.

The tactical one - He has a lot of zone-wide stuff. Does he have a way to not be affected himself by them? Or protecting his allies? At least the quartz and obsidian orbs seems like they're gonna target the zone he stands in decently often, and they might be as much an inconvenience to himself as his enemies.

Orbius is a bad spell...or that's the consensus from many on this board.  It messes up the action economy.  There's few ways to fix it, such as making the caster "concentrate" on the spell every exchange it lasts.  So, they'd re-roll their block every exchange.  They just wouldn't have to spend the Mental stress to maintain it, obviously.

As I mentioned, Zone-wide blocks for allies can be pretty awesome.

[umdshaman]

The mechanical one - The Orbius spell used as basis for the silver chain bracelet is really wonky. I like the idea of an item causing a grapple, but how is it "administered"? Do you have to physically "hit" the target with the chain, and then trigger the items effect? If so, that could be the "create relevant aspect" needed to instigate a grapple. Orbius as written bypasses the action economy of grapples in a weird way.

My understanding of the reason Orbius is written the way it is, is written is that it is 3 shifts of effect per exchange. The initiating exchange, those 3 shifts are spend toward a maneuver (that could fail). The roll (in this case Weapons) is then used to initiate the actual grapple. On subsequent exchanges, the 3 shifts represent a skill substitution for the remainder of the effect (on resisting). In effect this isn't much different than a DoT or shield spell. But anyway, that's my take and I think it follows the Orbius spell's mechanics pretty well. I'll see if I can find some of these arguments you're talking about and see what the GM has to say, but its not worth starting an argument about.

The tactical one - He has a lot of zone-wide stuff. Does he have a way to not be affected himself by them? Or protecting his allies? At least the quartz and obsidian orbs seems like they're gonna target the zone he stands in decently often, and they might be as much an inconvenience to himself as his enemies.

Nope. But keep in mind that a zone is a relative thing. An average floor of a building is likely to contain multiple zones, so that's kind of a built-in drawback to the spells. Some, like the blasting rod, are decidedly "do not point this at your feet". Others, like the obsidian orb are very intentionally designed to work that way. I can't very well put an aspect on the scene NOBODY BUT ME CAN SEE; so they're all situational. That's what enchanted items are for. That's also why I'm looking to see if anyone has enchanted items/rotes/low-cost thaum spells that they think might be better or at least important additions to the toolbox.

[Cadd]

Interesting take on a grappling spell - so the actual grapple isn't in effect until the round after it's activated? That could work...

For the zone-wide stuff - cool I just wanted to make sure you'd though about them. I can of example see the Lens of rose quartz shield yourself from the effect of the predator fangs & claws, figured you might have similar ideas around the orbs. Though I suppose that'll be a maneuver usually, like "shielding my eyes" to increase your own defense against the light-flash etc.

[Sanctaphrax]

Before you start, remember that crafting in general is dubiously balanced and that you may have to tone down your character or use houserules to avoid overshadowing other characters.

Orbius aside, the mica feather is probably unfair. Forced movement is never explained in the rules, but I'm pretty sure there should be some kind of defence roll.

I could quibble about the others, but they seem okay-ish to me. Maybe a bit wonky, but not too bad.

If he gave himself a Discipline 10 item, he could use that for his accuracy, giving him accuracy 10; weapon 10 items.

I don't think so, actually.

Using an item is generally an action. So you generally can't use two items at once like that.

If you could, you could just get a pile of free Aspects by activating a maneuver item alongside every action.

I'll see if I can find some of these arguments you're talking about and see what the GM has to say, but its not worth starting an argument about.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,33522.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29723.msg1260989.html#msg1260989

[umdshaman]

Before you start, remember that crafting in general is dubiously balanced and that you may have to tone down your character or use houserules to avoid overshadowing other characters.

We're going to argue an entire section of the RAW now? The thing is that Enchanted Items are very limited. For the same cost as having one full and one limited spellcasting ability (or one more point than sponsored magic) I have 8 VERY specific things that I can do 3 times per session that I cannot alter in any way except at significant milestones. Sure, its dubiously balanced but that's because its like comparing an entire workshop full of tools to a 9mm pistol.
As far as overshadowing goes, we've got 2 wizards, an ectomancer, and a faerie knight (and a shifter). I don't think that's a concern.

Orbius aside, the mica feather is probably unfair. Forced movement is never explained in the rules, but I'm pretty sure there should be some kind of defence roll.

Point. Should be Discipline vs Might or Endurance. I will fix that. As far as the rules go, its definitely a gap. As far as rules go, its basically a forced skill substitution on a sprint roll (in terms of point cost). Might do some damage with that kind of force though. I dunno; that's up to the GM.

Maybe a bit wonky, but not too bad.

Not sure what you mean by wonky. Enchanted items store spells. All of the items reflect some sort of spell (or spell idea) represented in the book. Except maybe the mica feather.

And I'm definitely not going to bother to argue with Orbius with, especially given your obvious hatred of it (from your other posts). Looking over some of the posts, I agree that the skill substitution roll should be one lower for it to deal damage. I'm going to remove that from my spell version since I don't want a Good result every turn instead. Otherwise its effects seem pretty much in line with what magic does.

[cowardlylion]

I don't think so, actually.

Using an item is generally an action. So you generally can't use two items at once like that.

If you could, you could just get a pile of free Aspects by activating a maneuver item alongside every action.

Here are some options they require two rounds but are extremely powerful.

Potion of True Aim (10 shifts) 
Strength 7 skill replacement shooting for 3 turns then you spend several fate points to increase it potency and you don't miss for several rounds.

Absolute Eye
Strength 10 skill replacement shooting 1 round: less useful but can still be used to get a +10 to hit once on your next turn. 
Broken but pretty

[Taran]

I don't think so, actually.

Using an item is generally an action. So you generally can't use two items at once like that.

If you could, you could just get a pile of free Aspects by activating a maneuver item alongside every action.

I usually say an enchanted item takes the same action that it's intended to replace:
-A reflexive block takes the place of a dodge.
-A Block in advance of an attack (like shielding yourself or allies) requires an action
-A discipline or Weapon skill replacement is an attack action. (the weapon 10 item would just be the weapon...but I see how this might not work.  Alternately, you could cast a spell and use the Discipline skill replacement as your control roll.)
-Creating an aspect is a maneuver and requires an action to activate.

[Sanctaphrax]

We're going to argue an entire section of the RAW now?

No, we're not going to argue it.

Plenty of people think crafting is broken. I see their point but don't entirely agree. And I figured I should let you know.

Incidentally, you can use enchanted items as many times as you like. It just costs 1 mental stress per use.

Point. Should be Discipline vs Might or Endurance. I will fix that. As far as the rules go, its definitely a gap. As far as rules go, its basically a forced skill substitution on a sprint roll (in terms of point cost). Might do some damage with that kind of force though. I dunno; that's up to the GM.

When you say Discipline vs Might/Endurance, do you mean that if your Discipline roll beats their Might/Endurance roll they move 7 zones?

Because there are a lot of different ways you could handle this.

Not sure what you mean by wonky.

The Intimidation item spends 2 shifts to become zone-wide, which is weird for a skill replacement item.

The flashing quartz also spends 2 shifts to hit a zone, which when added to its power of 4 leaves one shift left over. For duration, maybe? Also, I'm not sure the rules allow zone maneuvers like that. IIRC one of the example spells assumes they do, but the examples are often wrong.

The reflexive defence items, like most reflexive defence items, are automatically a little bit questionable because the rules never specify which defensive items can be activated reflexively.

And I'm definitely not going to bother to argue with Orbius with, especially given your obvious hatred of it (from your other posts). Looking over some of the posts, I agree that the skill substitution roll should be one lower for it to deal damage. I'm going to remove that from my spell version since I don't want a Good result every turn instead. Otherwise its effects seem pretty much in line with what magic does.

Okay.

I expect you'll come around to my way of thinking eventually. The best argument against Orbius is having people at your table use it.

I usually say an enchanted item takes the same action that it's intended to replace:
-A reflexive block takes the place of a dodge.
-A Block in advance of an attack (like shielding yourself or allies) requires an action
-A discipline or Weapon skill replacement is an attack action. (the weapon 10 item would just be the weapon...but I see how this might not work.  Alternately, you could cast a spell and use the Discipline skill replacement as your control roll.)
-Creating an aspect is a maneuver and requires an action to activate.

There is a bit of ambiguity, and I see where you're coming from, but the book never mentions the possibility of using two items together like that. And I'm reluctant to make Crafting stronger with generous interpretations.

[Cadd]

His character is complicated...so, it's possible there's a mistake.  I went over it several times and had him change stuff.  As well, we went through a couple milestones, so there's a chance things got changed since I last looked at it.
Edit: Thaum gives 2 foci +1 specialization
        Time manipulation is a sponsored magic: 2 more foci

4 refinements gives: 8 foci/specializations
= 12 foci +1 specialization

Ah, I expected it was something like that - As I said: "Unless Time Manipulation adds stuff aswell"

[Taran]

Having GM'd a Crafter (the one I linked) I'm going to side with the fact that they can be tweaked and OP.

Let's say he gives that weapon 9, 5times/session to the main tank who has an Epic(+7) attack, if you include stunts.
He'd doing weapon 9 + Strength Power at Epic.

At the same time, the Crafter is shooting people with weapon 10, accuracy 5 items.
The accuracy might be higher as he might use a declaration or a round to activate maneuver items.
When someone attacks the group, he can put up a zone-wide, reactive 8-shift block around the party

And 5 times/session is a lot.  When he runs out of uses, he defaults to the next big item, or he uses his mental stress to power the item.

I've been keeping him under control by throwing lots of mortals into the fray and compelling him to not use weapon 10 nukes for fear of accidently killing someone.  But when we fight "supernatural" creatures, it's kind of a joke, really.  He one-shots creatures fairly regularly.  Except for the few enemies dodgy enough that he can't hit...which is probably the biggest draw-back of a crafter.  It's hard to get your accuracy up there like you can with a straight up wizard.

[umdshaman]

When you say Discipline vs Might/Endurance, do you mean that if your Discipline roll beats their Might/Endurance roll they move 7 zones?

All or nothing, yeah. Only other thing I can think of is adding the shifts to your roll and subtracting the resist roll, which seems more likely to be broken.

The Intimidation item spends 2 shifts to become zone-wide, which is weird for a skill replacement item.

Fair point, I guess. Honestly it feels like the sort of thing magic should be able to do but I wanted to avoid an offensive mental evocation. Actually it feels like the sort of thing Intimidation should be able to do... I'll look into that and see if it makes more sense to rewrite it.

The flashing quartz also spends 2 shifts to hit a zone, which when added to its power of 4 leaves one shift left over.

I think I just used the wrong word level. Its basically just a magical flashbang, anyway.

The reflexive defence items, like most reflexive defence items, are automatically a little bit questionable because the rules never specify which defensive items can be activated reflexively.

YS280, "Defensive items (ones that provide armor or a block, for example) often consume a use at the time of defense and don’t require a separate action to activate." It's up to my GM but they are providing a block. Arguably you could set them up as a trigger on a Mediocre Ward or something like that instead.

I've been keeping him under control by throwing lots of mortals into the fray and compelling him to not use weapon 10 nukes for fear of accidently killing someone.  But when we fight "supernatural" creatures, it's kind of a joke, really.  He one-shots creatures fairly regularly.  Except for the few enemies dodgy enough that he can't hit...which is probably the biggest draw-back of a crafter.  It's hard to get your accuracy up there like you can with a straight up wizard.

I see three ways of looking at that. One is your players have basically said that they don't really want the game to be a challenge. Another is that they want to face enemies who are tough enough to take (or avoid) those 10-stress hits without a problem. Or, they're asking for the challenge to come from another direction entirely.
Also, remember zone-wide attacks are NOT selective, so forcing the players into a zone with borders (so they can't move out and act at the same time) and minions means any attack against them is an attack against himself. I also probably wouldn't allow zone-wide blocks, but if I did the same rules and preventative measures apply. They CAN make selective multi-target attacks or blocks, but it requires splitting both the Weapon rating and roll between targets (something I'd definitely adjudicate as needing to be pre-split as part of the item definition).

But mostly I look at it as, how much of your refresh did you use to get up there? 10 point items require some combination of 5 enchanted item slots or 5 focus items. 5 uses requires 2 enchanted item slots or 4 focus item. That's a minimum of 3 refresh if its your ONLY enchanted item. For the same cost you can get Inhuman Strength and Claws for a permanent +4 to Fists as well as some nice side benefits that can't be taken away from them.

But if you tweak it the right way (and your GM lets you get away with it) you can break most mechanics.

[Taran]

nah, that's not the problem.  The adventures are plenty challenging but the Crafter is that much better than the other PC's.  So then the question is, do I up the challenge to be able to give the crafter a challenge and risk annihilating some of the other PC's, or do I just keep the adventure status-quo and let the crafter take the lime-light?

With 10 refresh, the Main Fighters aren't putting out weapon 10 attacks and dodging at 10.

The point is the crafter has plenty of versatility both in and out of combat (thanks to skill replacement items) and is great at buffing and attacking...

I've been mixing it up enough to challenge everyone...but it's work.

Edit:  He's not MONSTROUSLY over-powered but it's enough that it takes juggling.