Sponsored Magic - first time approaching it...

[Blk4ce]

I think I get what you're saying, but I think your specific example of evothaum with soulfire is wrongly presented. Remember, soulfire gives evothaum to EVERY aspect of thaumaturgy. If we want to go with your method of adding evocation elements, we must add about a million: divination, conjuration, biomancy, ectomancy, disruption, worldwalking, necromancy, astrology... Anything at all! If you just add only one element, it would make taking specialisations useless.

[Taran]

I don't think that's relevant. Soul-fire is a theme, just like any sponsored magic.  If I add Summer as my sponsor, I wouldn't add, Biomancy, SUmmer fire etc, etc, etc..  You just say 'Summer'.  It's an element.  It does summer-y stuff, like healing and growth.

So yes, you take Soul-fire as an element.  Why does it make taking specializations useless?  Why does it matter how many schools of thaumaturgy it covers?   For thaumaturgy, it definitely makes taking a Divination specialization less worth it...as long as you don't mind your spells being at the whim of your sponsor.  Remember, it has to fit your sponsor's agenda.  Good luck spying on that pretty girl when you should be out killing necromancers.


But that has nothing to do with evo-thaum.  Soul-fire could already do all those schools of magic, so it makes sense that it should extend to evo-thaum.

[narphoenix]

Evothaum, in my interpretation, uses Evocation stuff. To give you an example of how I would apply it:

Alice Grace has Kindly Magic, and is currently battling a demon who just realized he bit off more than he can chew. He tries to run, but Kindly Magic gives Alice Divination Evothaum when hunting a target down. So Nar, Alice's player, says to his GM: Alice wants to cast a spell that will allow her target this guy and make him into barbecue. The spell will work by giving her a constant channel of air that she can follow, giving her a direction. vultur, in his everlasting wisdom, nods and allows the spell. Alice has Air specializations that take her up to 11 shift of power/control with Air in evocation, so when she casts the spell, it functions as a tracking spell of 11 shifts. Alice rolls the control easily, and grins as she follows the demon to a private area so she can roast the motherfucker.

[Blk4ce]

I don't think that's relevant. Soul-fire is a theme, just like any sponsored magic.  If I add Summer as my sponsor, I wouldn't add, Biomancy, SUmmer fire etc, etc, etc..  You just say 'Summer'.  It's an element.  It does summer-y stuff, like healing and growth.

True. BUT. I disagree in the case of soulfire, because it doesn't give a specific theme of thaumaturgy, but the POWER thaumaturgy (I mean other sponsors give just the power [-2]Ritual with an appropriate theme, but soulfire gives the power [-3]Thaumaturgy).

So yes, you take Soul-fire as an element.  Why does it make taking specializations useless?  Why does it matter how many schools of thaumaturgy it covers?

Shamelessly copying narphoenix, I submitt my own example
Dr. Dante Gheil has soulfire, and has discovered a rare infection in the blood of his werewolf patient, the product of archaiozoic bacteriae from the NeverNever. These bacteriae produce a neurotoxin that assaults the synapses responsible for controlling his shapeshifting powers and, by extend, his bloodlust. The Great and Benevolent vultur decrees that to purge the toxin and the bacteriae from his system, Dante needs a 12-shift ritual. With his specialisation in Biomancy at +6, he reaches the required complexity just enough. If he were to use a soulfire themed ritual, though, his base complexity would be +6, not having any specialisation, and he would need 3 successfull declarations (or inflict 3 mild consequences on his patient).

[Taran]

True. BUT. I disagree in the case of soulfire, because it doesn't give a specific theme of thaumaturgy, but the POWER thaumaturgy (I mean other sponsors give just the power [-2]Ritual with an appropriate theme, but soulfire gives the power [-3]Thaumaturgy).

No it doesn't.  It gives you all the benefits of Thaumaturgy as long as it fits the Theme and Agenda of the Sponsor.

So when your Fairy Friend (let's say another PC) asks you to help them hunt down an enemy they want to avenge, maybe because you owe them a favour,  You might not have access to your Soul-Fire because Soul-fire isn't really about vengeance and it doesn't care about hunting down Fae in the Nevernever.

You'd be much better off with Thaumaturgy.

Dr. Dante Gheil has soulfire, and has discovered a rare infection in the blood of his werewolf patient, the product of archaiozoic bacteriae from the NeverNever. These bacteriae produce a neurotoxin that assaults the synapses responsible for controlling his shapeshifting powers and, by extend, his bloodlust. The Great and Benevolent vultur decrees that to purge the toxin and the bacteriae from his system, Dante needs a 12-shift ritual. With his specialisation in Biomancy at +6, he reaches the required complexity just enough. If he were to use a soulfire themed ritual, though, his base complexity would be +6, not having any specialisation, and he would need 3 successfull declarations (or inflict 3 mild consequences on his patient).

Correct.  Because you put all your Foci in to Biomancy and not Soulfire.  In this situation, if you'd put all your foci in to Soul-fire, I'd allow the exact same spell because Curing people of Lycanthropy seems like something that suits the Agenda.

If you were wanted to TURN people into Lycanthropes, your foci are better spent on Biomancy because Soulfire wouldn't let you turn people into were-wolves..

You see.    While Soul-fire does every type of Thaumaturgy, it doesn't do every type of spell.  Why?  Because it has an agenda.

Standard sponsored magic benefits
(page 288), with a potentially gentler agenda
(though this may come with a tighter credit limit
on the matter of debt).

and

thaumaturgic application…well,
we don’t know really, so for our current purposes
consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy
spells (those which are agenda-compatible,
at any rate).

Notice what I bolded.  It DOESN'T give Thaumaturgy.  They specifically say they don't know and that you should assume the full range as long as they are "agenda compatible".

This is VERY important.  It's not a free, flexible Thaumaturgy with extra benefits and a GM should make sure they recognize this.

EDIT: you pay extra because of the extra flexibility of Soul-fire and because it down-grades ALL toughness, regardless of Catch.   It doesn't cost more because they assume it gives you Thaumaturgy.

[Blk4ce]

Of course it is important. But I am comparing cases in which both methods can be used (and let's face it, when you play a character with sponsored magic, the majority of your spells would be compatible to your sponsor, otherwise you REALLY need a new character)

If you were wanted to TURN people into Lycanthropes, your foci are better spent on Biomancy because Soulfire wouldn't let you turn people into were-wolves..

But what if turning him into a werewolf would save his life? It's all about context.

[Taran]

Of course it is important. But I am comparing cases in which both methods can be used (and let's face it, when you play a character with sponsored magic, the majority of your spells would be compatible to your sponsor, otherwise you REALLY need a new character)

Not necessarily.  And the other players don't have Sponsored magic, and sometimes their goals might not be compatible with your sponsors agenda.  It doesn't mean you can't help them...it just means it'll be hard for you to use your Sponsors magic.

EDIT:  Actually, having an evil character with Soul-fire would be an awesome character.  They'd rack up sponsored debt like crazy.  A great way for the Sponsor to "convert" someone...or make someone evil do things they might not normally do.  There'd be way more chances for compels as well...the FP's would roll in.

But what if turning him into a werewolf would save his life? It's all about context.

Taking away someone's free will so that he'll go and kill other people?  I might rule that as against Soul-fire.  Others may not.  But, obviously, context matter.

[Tedronai]

Soulfire makes no mention of providing any Evothaum whatsoever, let alone all Thaum compatible with the agenda as Evothaum.
All other Sponsored Magics explicitly call out what effects, if any, they provide as Evothaum, and in almost every case the Evothaum is narrower than the Thaum (Hellfire is a special case, but that requires sponsor debt; Kemmlerian Necromancy is also a special case, but then, it would be entirely pointless for that power to offer any Thaum, since it already requires you to have access to all of it; even in these special cases, though, the presence of Evothaum is explicitly called out).
It is illogical, then, to assume that Soulfire provides something that in all other cases is explicitly stated as being available when no mention of it is made in the description of Soulfire.

Houserule as you will.

[Taran]

Soulfire makes no mention of providing any Evothaum whatsoever, let alone all Thaum compatible with the agenda as Evothaum.
All other Sponsored Magics explicitly call out what effects, if any, they provide as Evothaum, and in almost every case the Evothaum is narrower than the Thaum (Hellfire is a special case, but that requires sponsor debt; Kemmlerian Necromancy is also a special case, but then, it would be entirely pointless for that power to offer any Thaum, since it already requires you to have access to all of it; even in these special cases, though, the presence of Evothaum is explicitly called out).
It is illogical, then, to assume that Soulfire provides something that in all other cases is explicitly stated as being available when no mention of it is made in the description of Soulfire.

Houserule as you will.

Huh.  When you read this:

Standard sponsored magic benefits
(page 288),

It's easy to assume Evo-Thaum.  But when you read page 288, there is no mention of evo-thaum.  I always assumed evo-thaum was part n' parcel with all Sponsored magic...but, perhaps, this isn't true!

[Tedronai]

It's definitely a possible benefit.  And probably even a common benefit, but it seems not to be a default benefit.

[Taran]

It's definitely a possible benefit.  And probably even a common benefit, but it seems not to be a default benefit.

Yeah, I was just about to point to the same quote as before,

The full scope of what soulfire can do is not
clear to us at this time.

So depending on Agenda and GM, evothaum could be a benefit.

[Tedronai]

True, but so far as the rules are concerned, that's no less true for Evocation.

[horngeek]

Personally, I'd have Evothaum be able to do everything that full-blown Ritual (since that's what it is, not full Thaumaturgy) can do within that 'speed and methods of Evocation'... but Evocation has a firm limit on the amount of power you can call up.  You can do some quick Biomancy with Summer Magic, but it'll never be as good as Thaumaturgy with a Biomancy theme. 

[umdshaman]

Honestly I think Sponsored Magic is just a really bad way to model SoulFire based on the way the books portray it.

[vultur]

Honestly I think Sponsored Magic is just a really bad way to model SoulFire based on the way the books portray it.

Well, when Harry uses it as "mystical rebar" that's sponsored magic.

There's more to it, though ... as we see in CD. But that is really more plot devicey.